Duke's Filmography- Past Discussion (Archive)

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  • And very well done.


    Chester: check your PM's.


    Hondo: I'm not sure I understand what you are asking, but if I understand this right, the production date would give a more correct picture of what John Wayne did when. That might be an argument for production date. It's no big deal to me one way or the other though.


    Regards
    Popol Vuh

  • Hi Everyone,
    The list, can be whatever is decided,
    I have no personal choice how it is printed,
    whether, production or release!
    It can be films, visibly seen, and credited,or not,
    although, I must say, how do any of us, know, how many films
    he was in, all be it,in a small way?
    That's why biographers, list all the possibilities!
    After the early films, production and release, more or less
    are the same anyway, with the notable exceptions, of Red River,
    Jet Pilot and probably The Conqueror!
    However, I like to watch Dukes films, and see him
    mature as we go along, so I must say it would be odd,
    to watch Jet Pilot, after The Searchers,
    and find Duke is ten years younger!!

    Best Wishes,
    Keith.

    Best Wishes
    Keith
    London- England

  • Quote

    Originally posted by Popol Vuh@Jul 28 2005, 06:08 AM
    It's no big deal to me one way or the other though.


    My sentiments exactly, PV.

    De gustibus non est disputandum


  • Chester,
    In the plot summary and notes on each page for the Wayne films, in Fred's book, there is a mention on most of them of when production started and ended, first showing date and official release date. That alpha listing for the films in his book was the publishers idea as Fred's final draft (which I have on a CD he sent me) had each film in original release order. If the publisher hadn't of changed the format, then Fred's book would have been several times better, as a reader (in the way Fred submitted the book) could have followed Wayne's career in a progressive and aging order. But, at that, I go along with Boyd Magers at "Western Clippings" and Chuck Anderson of "The Old Corral" when they advise to get the Landesman book and throw away any other books one has that deal with Wayne's films. And I'm still looking for the first one that deals with Wayne's personal life that is of any value. There may be one but it isn't among the dozen or so that I've seen.


    There are a few minor errors in Fred's book, but they are of no consequence as they are primarily printing typos on a few names...none of them effect the data regarding production dates and release dates. Listing a player's films in order of first release date is the standard way of compiling a filmography, but I also include the production dates in my own database, because of such late-release films as RED RIVER and JET PILOT, just to keep up with when and where an actor was working.


    Every film Wayne appeared in had its first release date in the US, whether it was filmed here or overseas. Some of the later overseas productions may have had a Premiere overseas but a premiere and being available for theatre bookings are two different animals. The reason that some of these films seem to have conflicting original-release dates is, among other reasons, some of the people who did earlier books on Wayne's films relied upon data found in the trade annuals---Motion Picture Herald, Film Daily yearbooks, etc.---and some of the dates found in those sources are the dates that paticular trade paper "Reviewed" the film and not the actual release date. Film Daily, in the early 30's, would show both release and review dates, but later just started showing only their own review date. And AFI has a lot of those FD review dates listed in their books as the release date. Why? Because their file-clerk researchers didn't know any better. "Aha, here's a date...use it" school of research.


    Anyway, ya'll seem to have it all coming together great, and it is nice to read the posts from people who care about accuracy, and will work together to ensure the finished product.


    Les

  • Just so you all know, Les Adams is one of those "resident experts" to whom I referred in the first post in this thread. With his help, I have made a few minor changes to the list in the Filmography thread. One change was the listing of Wheel of Fortune as an entry for 1941. Les brought it to our attention that Wheel of Fortune was a later re-titled, re-release of A Man Betrayed. There was a spelling correction on one of the titles, and footnoted further information on Desert Command.


    We are going to remove the list from the quote box so that we have greater lateral space to add numbering, month (as well as year) of release, studio producing the film, and availability as DVD (and in which regions). We'll be making changes a little at a time (we do have a life outside of the message board :rolleyes:).


    Chester :newyear:

  • Well, we started fine-tuning the Filmography, and the formatting is a BEAR :fear::fear2: . Sorry for all the dots, but spaces just don't work in this venue. We'll chip away at it, a little at a time. When all is said done, at least for now, we are using Fred Landesman's Appendix A, Films in Order of Release. Within the body of the book, in the movie descriptions, there is reference to things like Film Daily or Variety reviews, with dates that correspond appropriately to the stated release date.


    We'll work as quickly as possible - hopefully, the next time we'll be able to do twenty the next time (but no promises :uhuh: ).


    Mrs. C :angel1: (with Chester doing the background work of looking up the production studio and confirming the dates with references)


    ( . . . dragging weary bones off to bed . . . )

  • Hi Mr and Mrs Chester,
    I tell you, it is really hard and tiring work,
    posting a list of that magnitude,
    and you have my best wishes,
    in trying to edit it.
    It might be easier to transfer my list across, and work from there,
    it will at least save you having to key in the studios!
    I have included a few 'ifs' in there,
    but, I have got some factual back up
    to substantiate, their inclusion
    should you require it,


    Keith

    Best Wishes
    Keith
    London- England

  • Keith,


    I thought I asked you this question, but I obviously never posted it.


    Quote

    1928. HAM HAMILTONS COMEDIES- (Fox)


    This title is in your list, and I was wondering if you could tell us a little more about it. I couldn't find anything about it on IMDb, and tried Google as well, but didn't really come up with anything.


    Thanks!


    Mrs. C :angel1:

  • Hi,

    HAM HAMILTONS COMEDIES
    two reel comedies from the '20's'

    A couple of references, point out that Duke,was a lot busier
    with his propping and 'extras' work, then the scant listings of his earlier films suggest.

    Tim Lilley, wrote this article in the Big Trail,
    and pointed out the following:-

    THE FILMS OF JOHN WAYNE
    by Ricci/Zmijewsky.1970
    for years the standard reference work on John Wayne,
    made this interesting statement:-

    'Wayne continued working in the prop department(Fox)
    and now and then as a stuntman. He also began to get bit parts in Ham Hamilton comedies and Ford films such as HANGMAN'S HOUSE, SALUTE and MEN WITHOUT WOMEN'

    This was vindicated by Lee O Miller, the author
    of the 1979 book, THE GREAT COWBOY STARS OF MOVIES AND TELEVISION.
    Lee O Miller, had the good fortune to interview Duke, and Duke told him:-

    'I finally got bit parts in a few other films. Ham Hamilton was the director of those films.
    He was a friend of Ford's and the latter asked Hamilton to give me a chance at acting, if he had any bit parts, to cast me in!

    Duke also recalled other films he was associated with
    BROWN OF HARVARD, NOAH'S ARK.

    Although there is no visible proof,that Duke was in these films,
    neither is there, for some of the films, we've already listed!!
    To include some and not others, may spoil the full 'picture'

    Keith

    Best Wishes
    Keith
    London- England

  • Hi Keith


    In Hangman's House John Wayne has a number of scenes, the obvious is the one everybody shows with him demolishing the fence during the horse race. He is also seen in shadow being sentenced to hang and during which his film career almost came to a stop when he got a fit of the giggles. He is also seen running and waving his arm leading the people to the church and actually gets a written line, although for the life of me now I can't remember what it was, but I think it had something to do with religion.


    In Salute he is seen regularly throughout the picture, generally with Ward Bond and I have put forward the suggestion that this was the film in which he spoke his first lines on screen.


    In Men Without Women if you blink you'll miss him as he is the radio operator seen briefly in the submarine rescue attempt.


    I think in Brown of Harvard it is readilly accepted as being one of his, and I would be surprised if he wasn't in Noah's Ark as it had a supporting cast of thousands and I would have thought that the world and his wife would have been it.




    Regards


    Arthur

    Walk Tall - Talk Low

  • Chester,


    I saw the changes you made to the list. However, I still think DESERT COMMAND should be deleted completely from the Duke's filmography.


    Quote

    "I am not intoxicated - yet." McLintock!

  • hi ejgreen77


    gday firstly


    i think desert command should stay in as even though its a rerelease of 3 musketters with the front bits cut of some would prefer this one to 3 musketters so that they dont have to sit through all of the opening rehash from the previous short movie. after all it is still one of his movies no matter how it came about


    just my 2 cents worth


    hooroo smokey

    " its not all black and white, but different shades of grey"

  • smokey,


    I can appreciate your comment. I myself would rather see a condensed version of these serials with all the flashback sequences edited out (yes I have actually sat through all three of them). The problem is that I still don't think any amount of editing this warrants it being listed as a separate film. I mean, no new footage was added. Let's put it this way, I have a version of The Shadow of the Eagle that was produced in 2003. It has all the flashback sequences edited out and runs for 186 minutes as compared to the 218 minutes of the original. So, should this version be listed as a separate film produced in 2003? Of course not. Neither should DESERT COMMAND. As Les Adams says, I don't want someone 50 years from now to look at the list and think that Duke made a 1946 remake of his 1933 hit, The Three Musketeers. By the way, although I have never seen it, DESERT COMMAND only runs 70 minutes as compared to 210 minutes for The Three Musketeers. So I'd assume that a lot more was cut then just the opening plot summary. But, as I said, I don't think any amount of editing a film warrants it being listed as a separate film. But, that's just my opinion.


    Quote

    "I am not intoxicated - yet." McLintock!

  • Discussions! That's good.


    A couple of other things to discuss.
    Rookie of the Year and Flashing Spikes. Both of them missing on Keith's list and one of them on mine. Should they be on the list. I havent seen Falshing Spikes, but I feel that Rookie of the Year with John Wayne in the lead role should be kept in.


    Keith: Along with the ones you added you also cut out a few from the other list. I assume this is correct, but I guess you could verify?


    THE VOICE OF HOLLYWOOD No.13
    THE HOLLYWOOD HANDICAP
    STARS PAST AND PRESENT



    I haven't seen any of these either so I wouldn't know.


    Regards
    Popol Vuh

  • Popol Vuh,


    You raise a whole new question: TV show appearances. Flashing Spikes was episode # 2.1 of the TV show "Alcoa Premiere" while Rookie of the Year was episode # 1.10 of the TV show "Screen Directors Playhouse." Duke made 52 total guest appearances on TV shows, most notably on "I Love Lucy," "Gunsmoke," "Wagon Train," "The Dean Martin Show," and "The Beverly Hillbillies." Most filmography lists do not list TV guest appearances. IMdB has them listed separately at the bottom of the page. I believe this is the best way to do this.


    Quote

    "I am not intoxicated - yet." McLintock!

  • If I am correct, we are listing movies he appeared in. This is a whole new ballgame if we include appearences on TV, and can you include his movies that are appearing on cable TV today? I think we need to keep this on movies on the big screen. This can be totally complicated.


    Cheers B)



    Quote

    "When you come slam bang up against trouble, it never looks half as bad if you face up to it"

    - John Wayne quote

  • ejgreen: Yes, you are probably right about that you might need a seperate list. When it comes to "Rookie of the Year" however I felt that it was John Wayne starring in a short movie. From what I understand Screen Directors Playhouse were all separate stories. They were not linked to each other. At least not from what I could see. I have a couple of these on DVD. Mind you, I'm still not disagreeing with you, just pointing out that it wasn't a regular guest appereance.


    Hondo: Yes it is complicated. If it wasn't we could all have downloaded a list from the internet. That's why we need the discussion. I'm just trying raise some questions, since I really don't feel I'm qualified to answer any of these questions. Even if we stay with the movies on the big screen it will be complicated. I believe we would need to discuss a few of the movies individually, and as I see this process has already started.


    Regards
    Popol Vuh

  • Reference Movies vs. TV shows and, for whatever it is worth, and I have no bones to pick whichever side of this fence others may fall on:


    1.A Movie is a film that was booked into a theatre and people spent cold cash at the theatre box-office to see.


    2.A television show is something that was never booked into a theatre, and the viewers paid nothing to watch it...but it is a far removed from being a theatrical movie. ("Lonesome Dove" might be the only TV show exception I'd make to this list.)


    Bottom line---his filmography should consist of any film that fits the definition found in No. 1.


    Those that fit the second definition should be listed below the Movies in his filmography...as television appearances and footnoted whether it was a filmed show or live as a host or a guest or whatever. And television showings of the films that fit the first definition are not included in this list...else the list would grow day-by-day because some station somewhere( local, cable, network) is showing a real Wayne Movie 24/7.


    (I would not include studio weekly newsreels, even though up until the major studios discontinued sending twice-a-week newreels to theatres that had signed up for their newsreel services--- RKO-Pathe, Universal, Paramount News, Warners, MGM, 20th Century-Fox et al--- the premiere of any Wayne film made for or distributed by those studios most likely was covered by those newsreels a few days later. Most of them were, the Republic's excepted, in the newsreels I watched in a theatre in the 40's and 50's.)


    I have no issue with anybody who "figgers" otherwise regarding the way I would list Wayne's films by being either Movies or Televison. Or as "Dandy Don" Meredith was fond of saying...'different strokes for different folks" (and as Meredith was quick to point out, he wasn't the originator himself.)


    One other possible pitfall I don't recall being mentioned, and this happens mostly on Wayne films beginning in the 1960's (and on some made much earlier): the Production Company and the Distribution Company listed on the same film were often completely different companies which, for total accuracy, calls for a column for Production and another one for (primary) Distributor. Hey, never said it would be easy.


    But if anybody can eventually put together the Ultimate Wayne Check List, my money is on the members of this Message Board.


    Les