WHEN did JW Meet FORD?

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  • In light of the discovery of JW in Careful please released February 1926 (Lloyd Hamilton comedy short)

    and JW said "Ford asked Hamilton to give him bit parts"

    it is reasonablee to assume either

    JW was incorrect

    or

    JW met Ford before February 1926.

    PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE

    Can you tell of ANY mention of JW & FORD meeting that you know of.

    If it is in a book please can you tell me the exact text, book title and page number.

    If it from a website please can you tell me the address.

    THANK YOU SO MUCH

    Be who you are & say what you feel Because those who mind dont matter & those who matter dont mind

    Edited once, last by Elly: spelling ().

  • Elly, from my research for what it's worth.
    I read in all my books that Duke was very much in college
    in and around 1924/25, and it was his meeting with Tom Mix,
    in June 1926, that Mix invited the young footballers,
    to the Fox Studios for summer jobs.!!
    There is no mention of Duke being involved
    in movie studios before this time!!


    In that's the case, how did he get involved with Lloyd Hamilton,
    if in fact this was earlier?
    Unless of course he met Hamilton later in his series of comedies,
    which would explain Careful Please in 1926.


    So Iron Horse could prove correct.
    I hope your hours of wading through this film are fruitful
    as once again you could be altering history
    and all the associated books will have to updated!!


    Yes he did herd sheep, but in which film?


    Mother Machree is the gaggle of geese, so where were the sheep

    Best Wishes
    Keith
    London- England

  • for continuity, I have copied these previous posts
    from Duke's Filmography- Discussion





    Elly, I agree!


    We all believed Duke met Ford on the Fox sets,
    from your research, it could be, that he met him on the Hamilton sets.
    However, did he indeed meet Ford, say about the time of
    The Iron Horse etc.


    Interesting stuff, all this!


    Best Wishes
    Keith
    London- England

  • I've read so many biographical sketches that say John Wayne's first job in motion pictures was as a prop man. But I heard Duke say on the set of 'Cahill' that his very first job in movies was holding up lighting reflectors during location shooting. It took a strong, athletic guy to withstand heat and wind, and keep those big reflectors steady and directional take after take.

  • I've read so many biographical sketches that say John Wayne's first job in motion pictures was as a prop man. But I heard Duke say on the set of 'Cahill' that his very first job in movies was holding up lighting reflectors during location shooting. It took a strong, athletic guy to withstand heat and wind, and keep those big reflectors steady and directional take after take.


    Joe,
    I have moved your post here
    as it may be important to thread

    Best Wishes
    Keith
    London- England

  • when did Ford actually recognize him as an actor? Not until Stagecoach. Right?


    Bill,
    Ford probably saw his potential in The Big Trail,
    but that is not the question being asked here.
    We are looking for information as to when the two met!

    Best Wishes
    Keith
    London- England

    Edited once, last by ethanedwards ().

  • Joe,
    I have moved your post here
    as it may be important to thread



    Thank you for this. if only JW had said on what film or the location!

    I think it is also important to gather as many quotes together to compare them and see if we can connect the dots so to speak.

    JW said Tom Mix gave him a job which is often quoted as his start in the movies but JW never said it his FIRST job.

    Be who you are & say what you feel Because those who mind dont matter & those who matter dont mind

  • Elly,

    Here's a paragraph from John Wayne: American by Randy Roberts and James S. Olson:


    -----------
    Abandoned by Mix, Duke soon met a more valuable benefactor. One day John Ford saw Duke working on a set. Ford called out to him, "You one of Howard Jones's bright boys?" Duke said, "Yes," and Ford then said, "Let's see you get down in position." Duke had barely got into a three-point stance before Ford kicked out both of his hands and sent him sprawling in the dirt. Ford laughed and said, "And you call yourself a football player. I'll bet you couldn't even take me out." Duke said, "I'd like to try." In the next ten seconds, Duke ran at Ford, drove his leg into the director's chest, and sent him sprawling. The set was absolutely quiet. Everybody waited for the explosion of Ford's legendary wrath, for Duke to be banished forever from Hollywood. Instead Ford burst out laughing, taking an immediate liking to the young man who would not be intimidated. The encounter changed both of their lives.
    -----------


    Now here's the same story as told in Searching for John Ford by Joseph McBride:


    -----------
    Morrison began working at Fox in the summer before his sophomore year of 1926, lugging around furniture and other props and serving as a general handyman for such directors as Raoul Walsh and Frank Borzage. He soon caught the eye of Ford.

    Tall, ruggedly handsome, and incongruously graceful for a football lineman, Morrison struck the kind of effortlessly impressive male figure that the former "Bull" Feeney wished he could have been. Ford found his physical ideal in the Duke, his cinematic equivalent of Michelangelo's David. So, naturally, Ford had to mask his true feelings and all they might have implied by playing the tough guy and cruelly tormenting the young man. An avid fan of USC football and a friend of the team's coach, Howard Jones, Ford encountered Duke working on a set and immediately put him through a macho hazing ritual.

    "You one of Howard Jones's bright boys?" the director asked. Let's see you get down in position."

    As Duke assumed a tackle's three-point stance, Ford suddenly kicked his hand, knocking him into the dirt. "And you call yourself a football player," the director sneered. "I'll bet you couldn't even take me out."

    Wayne recalled what happened next: "So, not being interested in a motion picture career at the time, I said, 'Let's try it again.'" When Ford assumed his position, Wayne "kicked him and hit him in the chest. He looked up with a little surprise and there was a deadly silence. And right then was the deciding point in my career in motion pictures."

    Ford finally said they should get back to work: "That's enough of this bullshit."

    The director hired Morrison as a propman on Mother Machree and Four Sons. Ford later recalled, "I could see that here was a boy who was working for something--not like most of the other guys, just hanging around to pick up a few fast bucks. Duke was really ambitious and willing to work. Inside of a month or six weeks we were fast friends, and I used to advise him and throw him a bit part now and then."
    -----------


    It's obvious from the wording that this was the first time Ford and Morrison met.

    More evidence, this time from the PBS American Masters episode John Ford/John Wayne: The Filmmaker & the Legend. John Ford: "Duke was an undergraduate at USC when I first saw him...." This is probably the introduction quoted above, although Morrison enrolled at USC in the fall of 1925. Perhaps they had only seen each other previously on the Fox lot, a place where Morrison was working fulltime during the summer of 1926.

    If John Ford asked Ham Hamilton to give Morrison bit parts, perhaps something was lost with time and the recollections were distorted. John Wayne remembered it that way but maybe -- since Ford was an avid USC fan and a friend of the coach -- Ford put word out to the USC team via the coach, Howard Jones, to visit Hamilton for work. In other words, the advice was not specific to Morrison but to the team in general.

    Wayne even said, "Ham Hamilton was the director of those films.", yet that wasn't true. This illustrates how time can distort the facts.

    There's also the chance that Morrison doesn't even appear in Careful Please, and that we are all mistaken by someone who resembles him.

  • Elly,
    If John Ford asked Ham Hamilton to give Morrison bit parts, perhaps something was lost with time and the recollections were distorted. John Wayne remembered it that way but maybe -- since Ford was an avid USC fan and a friend of the coach -- Ford put word out to the USC team via the coach, Howard Jones, to visit Hamilton for work. In other words, the advice was not specific to Morrison but to the team in general.
    Wayne even said, "Ham Hamilton was the director of those films.", yet that wasn't true. This illustrates how time can distort the facts.
    There's also the chance that Morrison doesn't even appear in Careful Please, and that we are all mistaken by someone who resembles him.


    Hello Neil
    Thank you so much for these references I have the books so can look up the page numbers.

    The more I look into this the more I come back to Ford and JW meeting whilst JW was working at Fox on the great K&A train robbery. (Tom Mix). Directed by Lewis Seiler (Production commenced May 1926)

    I am in the process of reviewing the Iron Horse Directed by John Ford and released October 1925. I am very sceptical because the premiere was actually August 1924 and I cannot believe that if JW worked on this film that neither he nor Ford ever mentioned it.

    Of course there are a few more films Directed by Ford before Mother Machree and I will also review those. (as well as more Hamilton films)

    Often, I find I am doing things to DISPROVE something rather than prove it. For me that is equally as satisfying given that I want the facts and not the supposition.

    AND

    JW being mistaken about Ford asking Hamilton to give him bit parts. As you rightly point out JW was mistaken about Hamilton being a Director so he could also have been mistaken about Ford being the one who asked Hamilton to give him bit parts. Also JW was picking up work with other studios before he met Ford so its not hard to leave Ford out of the work JW did with Hamilton.

    I have been digging around today trying to find out when Ford met Hamilton and although Hamilton did work on the Fox lot it was 1917-1919 BEFORE Ford started at Fox in 1921. I cannot link the two professionally but that is not to say that socially they were not linked.

    I can however link Hamilton to Tom Mix as they were on the Fox lot at the same time! Just to throw a spanner in the already full tool box LOL

    AND

    Yes, as sad as that would be, there is the chance that we are all mistaken about JW in Careful please.

    Be who you are & say what you feel Because those who mind dont matter & those who matter dont mind

    Edited once, last by Elly ().

  • Could it be that Hamilton saw John Wayne on a film set moving furniture, holding lights and reflectors, etc, and perhaps saw potential in the young Wayne, and then mentioned it to Ford (whom he may have known socially), and Ford then told him to give Wayne a shot in front of the camera. This would have happened before Wayne and Ford even met, and Ford may have later watched the Hamilton films to see if Wayne may have had that certain something in front of the camera, and then, upon recognizing him on the Fox lot, given Wayne a shot in Mother Machree. With this theory (and it is nothing more than speculative theory), the Wayne and Ford would both be correct in saying that they met on the set of Mother Machree (as quoted in John Wayne: American by Randy Roberts and James S. Olson, and Joseph McBride in Searching for John Ford), and Wayne would still be correct in saying that Ford had spoken with Hamilton regarding putting Wayne in front of the camera (and remember that he WAS in front of the camera on several occasions before Mother Machree)



    Also, as Wayne’s freshman year at USC was September 1925 through May 1926, he would have still been in High School when The Iron Horse was in production (as it premiered in New York on 28 August 1924, and production would have been underway at least May-July 1924). Based on this, I don’t see how Wayne could have appeared in The Iron Horse at the age of 16 or 17.



    As for Careful Please (1926), I am convinced that the extra Elly has recognized as John Wayne, actually is John Wayne. Yes, he was in school, however, it is not outside the realm of possibility that he did some extra work while he was in school. An extra is not necessarily needed on a film set for the duration of production, only on those days where he would appear in a scene. As the Hamilton shorts were very low budget, focusing on laughs rather than production values, it is quite conceivable that Wayne worked for a day or two on Careful Please, as well as likely doing the same on other films.

    "I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I require the same from them" It may be time worn, but it's the best life-creed I know.

  • Hi Bob

    See my reply to Neil below. I too think JW met Ford at Fox in 1926 but I think Ford spotted him probably whilst JW was working on the Great K&A train robbery.

    Both of the references Neil quoted actually say JW was working on a lot and one goes on to say Ford then hired him to prop Mother Machree.

    What we know to date is that the only film JW made at FOX before Mother Machree is The great K&A train robbery.

    As far as I have been able to establish Hamilton shorts were NOT made at Fox other than these:

    1917
    Damaged, No Goods
    1917
    Roaring Lions and Wedding Bells
    1918
    The Son of a Hun
    1918
    Mongrels
    1918
    Roaring Lions on the Midnight Express
    1918
    A Tight Squeeze
    1918
    A Waiter's Wasted Life
    1918
    Hungry Lions in a Hospital
    1919 Feb
    His Musical Sneeze


    And after this they were made at facilities hired from the poverty row studios. I am working on trying to pinpoint this more accurately.

    Ford's first film at Fox was Just pals released November 1920.

    I like your theory but I think it is more likely that JW's memory suffered from the length of time passed and one or two slugs of tequila LOL

    After all he said himself he could not remember all of the films he had been in.

    And althought I said we could all be mistaken about it being JW in careful please I would still bet my shirt on it being him!

    Be who you are & say what you feel Because those who mind dont matter & those who matter dont mind

    Edited once, last by Elly: spelling ().

  • I agree, Bob, that it isn't outside the realm of possibility that he did some extra work while he was in school. These were tough times for many people and the work would have paid well. Plus the physical comedy evident in Careful Please is perfect for the athletic. Not to mention that many people in Hollywood were USC fans.

    I found it interesting that Wayne, according to actor Iron Eyes Cody, even screen tested for MGM and "didn't pass". It makes me wonder what else he may have done on the MGM lot.

    As quoted previously, Wayne worked as a general handyman for Raoul Walsh and Frank Borzage while at Fox. Looking into things, I see that Borzage worked exclusively for Fox around this time. But Raoul Walsh was working on the Paramount lot until What Price Glory, so Wayne probably was a prop man on that Fox film. Although released in August 1927, it premiered in November 1926; production itself would probably tie in with the summer of 1926. So many of the films from this time were held back and modified for general release with the advent of sound.

  • Thank you all so much for taking the time to give me your input.

    It was just a question that occured to me and has temporarily distracted me from my main task right now.

    I have weighed it all up and am prepared to go with the simplest explaination for now in that JW was mistaken. I say for now as I hope in the course of enquiries I am making and my main task we may get to know more.

    My main task given the Careful please discovery, is to list ALL possible films 1925 - 1931 JW could have worked on. THIS I HAVE DONE and it is posted on this board.

    I have included All films by these Directors that were filmed on the Fox lot: Walsh, Borzage, Ford, Hawks,

    I have included Taurog (who directed Hamilton films which were not filmed at Fox but during the same period did direct films without Hamilton that were filmed at Fox.

    I have included all Hamilton films of the period (as far as I can ascertain to date) none of which were filmed on the fox lot.

    What Price glory? is on the list as it qualifies for being of the right period, directed by Walsh (assisted by Ford) and it was filmed at Fox.

    I have included any and all of the above from January 1925 and it runs to 8 pages.

    Obviously as JW was picking up work from other studios during this period I should have just looked at all FILMS regardless of who was directing, where they were filmed and who was the production company.

    HOWEVER, I do not have enough years left in my lifetime to source and view what would be an enormous list.

    So that is why my list is as it is and I am starting with what IMHO are those films most likely to be associated with JW.

    Then I wanted to find and view as many of these films from my list as I can to confirm whether or not JW was in them.

    As I had to hand a few poor quality prints of Hamilton shorts and the Iron Horse - and as I was side tracked by the question of when JW met Ford I looked at the Iron Horse first. It was included in my list after all as a possible JW film.

    Even though I posted the screen captures from the iron horse of POSSIBLE sightings of JW, given the date of the premiere and therefore the date of filming and the fact that such an important film as this was never mentioned by JW or Ford I have to conclude this is "NOT PROVEN"

    So this is where I am at right now and I have a marathon ahead of me.

    I will keep you posted as and when anything turns up after all I would like this board to be "Where you heard it first!"

    Thanks again for all of your help which is always much appreciated.

    Be who you are & say what you feel Because those who mind dont matter & those who matter dont mind

  • I have copied this over from Bill's 26 Bar Ranch thread


    I SEE OVER ON ONE OF THE PAGES OF THIS SITE THAT SOME OF YOU WANT TO KNOW HOW JOHN FORD AND THE DUKE MET UP WITH EACH OTHER ? :wink_smile:
    HERE IS A VIDEO THAT WILL SHOW YOU WHAT HISTORY HAD TO SAY ABOUT HOW THEY MET UP WITH EACH OTHER !!!
    CHILIBILL
    :cowboy:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWHms9nLl-8


    However it doesn't say when or where, and in which movie they met!

    Best Wishes
    Keith
    London- England

    Edited once, last by ethanedwards ().

  • hi Keith

    thanks for copying it and as you say does not say where or when but interesting just the same.

    And thanks Bill!

    Be who you are & say what you feel Because those who mind dont matter & those who matter dont mind

  • From the book John Wayne:American. Pages 60 & 61


    Ralph 'Pexy' Eckles.
    Remembered several jobs they got with MGM.
    Duke doubled for Francis X. Bushman in Brown of Harvard,
    and he portrayed a spear carrying guard in Bardlelys the Magnificent.
    Eckles recalled:

    Quote

    Duke and I enjoyed such work...
    and were grateful for the pay..
    which was eight to ten dollars a day...
    good money back then...


    Football films were popular in Hollywood.

    Quote

    Nearly all the studios were making them...
    and so were coming over to USC and using students as extras.
    Duke worked as a football player in several of them


    Inj the Spring of 1926, Duke also worked that semester
    as an extra in MGM's Annie Laurie.
    Intrigued with the industry, he wrangled a screen test at MGM.


    Iron Eyes Cody, remembered meeting Duke in the spring of 1926.,


    Duke started working for Fox in the Summer of 1926,
    commencing with the Great K & A Train Robbery


    The book goes on to say Duke worked on sets
    on the swing gang, as a glorified furniture mover.
    It was on one of the sets that Ford met him,
    but it does NOT say which one,
    but that it was around June 1926.


    The book John Wayne- The Politics of Celebrity. Garry Mills.Page 68.


    Suggest the two met in 1926 or 1927.
    with the often mentioned 'kicking on the rump',
    Again though, it does not say on which set.

    Best Wishes
    Keith
    London- England

    Edited 2 times, last by ethanedwards ().


  • Here is a little more info. as told by Duke on when He first meet John Ford and where !
    :wink_smile:
    John Ford's "Salute" (1929) was an inexpensive action movie about the football rivalry between the Army and the Navy. Shooting, however, began before the semester was over and Duke had to persuade the university' president to let the students appear in the movie. :biggrin:
    Duke said he did a good public relations job, stressing the rewards of such an experience: the travel to Annaplois and Washington D.C., the learning of the country's political and military institutions, and, of course, the money ! :hyper:
    Producer Sol Wurtzel offered each football player 75 dollars a week, but Wayne, trying to impress him with his modesty, suggested instead only 50 dollars. Then Wurtzel proceeded to tell Wayne the bad news: “I forgot to mention to you, Duke, that you're doing double duty on this picture. You're still doing propping work, and playing football too. Congratulations! You just screwed yourself out of twenty-five bucks a week!” :omg2:
    Ironically, Wayne was cast in "Salute" as George O'Brien's brother Bill, a cadet at the Annapolis Academy, something he could never achieve in his real life. The critical response to the film was not all that good, but "Salute" was very popular at the box-office. This picture is also important for marking the beginning of a life-long work and friendship for Duke with Ward Bond, another student at U.S.C., who went on to become an actor, by accident, like John Wayne !!! Bill :cowboy:

  • Bill's post mentions that they met on the set of Salute,
    but this is NOT where they met!
    This movie is the first time Ford cast him as a support role/ extra,
    and the first movie that Duke spoke in, see:
    Salute (1929)
    The facts are, that they met way before then,
    on a previous set, when Duke was on the 'swing gang'
    as mentioned in all the previous posts/ quotes.


    Ford 'kicked him on the rump' on one of those sets,
    but which one? that is what we want to know!

    Best Wishes
    Keith
    London- England

    Edited 7 times, last by ethanedwards ().

  • Just checked out the the beginning of the documentary


    Directed by John Ford (1971) Peter Bogdanovich


    Duke actually states on camera, that it was on the set
    of Mother Machree, (1928)
    when Ford got him herding the geese,
    that it was this movie where he was 'kicked'
    and that it was THIS movie that was his FIRST job with Mr Ford


    Duke states:

    Quote

    So when Mr. Ford needed a goose herder for his set,
    it just fit my pistol. They had a hill made up, a fake hill for this
    set of Mother Machree and the geese, were getting down under
    the two by fours there, and they needed a fella to herd them out.
    so that was my first job with Mr Ford


    Duke went on to say

    Quote

    So you're a footballer player said Mr Ford, get down
    on my forearms and feet, and just kicked my arms from under me,
    and stuck my nose in the mud that they'd made for Mother Machree,


    and the rest is history.


    As production started in September 1926
    this would fit with all the information from the books.


    I for one cannot dispute or argue with what Duke actually said!!

    Best Wishes
    Keith
    London- England

    Edited 21 times, last by ethanedwards ().