War Tactic Question

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    I watched 'From Here to Eternity' today and one scene reminds me of Duke's movie 'In Harm's Way'.


    When the Japanese attack Pearl Harbor, they are always shown strafing individuals who are running for cover. While this makes the film exciting, I have always wondered how accurate it is.


    I would think the pilots would be more concerned with hitting heavy targets like ships, planes, and infrastructure instead of wasting valuable time attacking a few individuals. I may be totally wrong about this - but if someone could enlighten me I would appreciate it.


    -ncb

    My heroes have always been cowboys.

    You are correct in your thinking. It is more for dramatic effect in the movies, although it did happen on occasion I also believe that it was against the Geneva Convention to use anything besides a weapon a man can shoulder. Not that is was followed all the time by certain countries. I am not quite sure of the official description but I am pretty sure I am correct in atleast part of my thinking. Carl(Ringo Kid) may have the official wording as he is somewhat of a military history buff.

    Life is hard, its even harder when your stupid!!
    -John Wayne

    I don't know I think strafing runs are very effective in suppressing ground troop movement and helicopters have grown greatly to fill the role of close air support.



    I also did a quick search of the geneva convention and didn’t see anything about a shouldered weapon.

    You can roll a turd in powdered sugar but that doesn’t make it a doughnut.

    Well, originally I was going to say a certain caliber and below but there are so many calibers and they now use a .50 cal for sniper rifles so I cannot say for sure what exactely the meaning is. With more time I will find out myself. Thanks for the link though.

    Life is hard, its even harder when your stupid!!
    -John Wayne

    OK, I found this out petaining the Hague Convention which actually was used to create the Geneva Convention:



    The principal provision relating to the legality of weapons is contained in Art. 23e of the Annex to Hague Convention IV Respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land of 18 October 1907, which prohibits the employment of "arms, projectiles, or material of a nature to cause superfluous injury."


    Art. 35, para. 2 of the 1977 Protocol I Additional to the Geneva Conventions of August 12, 1949, states in part that "It is prohibited to employ weapons [and] projectiles . . . of a nature to cause superfluous injury or unnecessary suffering."


    The United States, even though its forces abide by the Geneva and Hague conventions, is not actually a signer of either treaty.


    The Hague convention prohibits the use of open or soft tipped bullets in most cases.

    Life is hard, its even harder when your stupid!!
    -John Wayne

    I Was Not in WW- 2 but I was in the Next One in the early 1950s the Korean War or what they called a Police Action in those days. And after we had dropped all of our Bombs and Shot all of our Air to Ground Rockets we used our Six 50 Cal. Machine Guns on the F-86 and Strafed any thing that moved Trucks, Trains, Aircraft and Troops. :fear2:


    The only thing that we were not to do was to go North of the Yalu River into China after the Mig-15s going back into China, but some times we did it anyhow! :)


    All you have to do is watch some of the old Films on the History Channel of WW-2, The Korean, Vietnam War and the Gulf War you will see that they used Rockets, Bombs and Machine Guns on anything that Moved. This is the way you Fight any War, Geneva Convention or not!!!


    In the Gulf War this was done with A-10s Ground Attack Fighters and Helicopters. The other Fighters Aircraft stayed at a higher Altitude. :fear:


    Chilibill :cowboy:

    Well, I stand corrected.


    I guess its all a matter on how you interpet the code. And yes I would condone the use of any force to subdue the enemy. Its the old saying, there are no rules when it comes to fighting a war.

    Life is hard, its even harder when your stupid!!
    -John Wayne

    Hi to all who do watch THC for their documentaries on WWII. I know of a few sequences of "real footage" that i'm sure most everyone has seen -- that is--those who do watch war docs.


    Anyway, one very famous "strafing attack" that was cought on the strafing fighter's gun camers was that of a fighter strafing Generalfeldmarschall Erwin Johannes Eugen Rommel's staff car just after the Allied invasion of the Normandy beaches. This footage shows how close the Desert Fox came to being killed. He was travelling in a Kubelwagon (the German version of the American Jeep) down a road in France when he was spotted by a roving Allied figter and was strafed.


    A great example of this in a movie was in the movie: The Longest Day. The actor it happened to was Hans-Christian Blech who was playing Wehrmacht Mayor (Major) Werner Pluskat. He was the soldier sent to the beaches to see what was going on shortly before the opening barrages of ship's artillery-fire. This was the man who had his pet German Shephard with him.


    The "older" German soldier who was riding either a Horse or a Donkey, who was the guy taking tureens of coffee to the troops on the beach when the shelling started was Gert Frobe.

    Es Ist Verboten Mit Gefangenen In Einzelhaft Zu Sprechen..

    Thanks for pointing that out Ringo. I seriously don't know what the hell I was thinking as I have seen all that footage and movies. I guess I was sucked into the propoganda from the Vietnam war. I read someplace that during the Vietnam war they were short on .50 cal ammo so they told the soldiers only use the small calber weapons as it was against the Geneva Convention the shoot another human being with a .50. But it was just cause they were conserving .50 cal ammo. So many stories, so many half truths.

    Life is hard, its even harder when your stupid!!
    -John Wayne

    Quote

    Originally posted by SXViper@Jun 1 2006, 12:04 AM
    Thanks for pointing that out Ringo. I seriously don't know what the hell I was thinking as I have seen all that footage and movies. I guess I was sucked into the propoganda from the Vietnam war. I read someplace that during the Vietnam war they were short on .50 cal ammo so they told the soldiers only use the small calber weapons as it was against the Geneva Convention the shoot another human being with a .50. But it was just cause they were conserving .50 cal ammo. So many stories, so many half truths.

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    Hi Todd, definately not a problem ;-)) There are other examples I have seen both real combat footage and that made by Hollywood I can describe for you if you wish. I can't say for sure about the shortness of .50 cal during Nam but I can ask a friend of mine who lives in the now flooded area 2 miles to the South of Kingsville--called: Ricardo. Anyway, my friend serves 3 tours in Nam and he might be able to answer that question though. Gary Hatley (my friend who served in Nam) was in the 101st Airborne Div and I think had one of his first combat experiances when they were conducting Operation Ripcord. It was during this operation that he "acquired" his war trophy - which was a NVA officer's personal handgun - which was a Tokerev semi-aute pistol. Gary got this after he shot the guy who was about to shoot him when he and his squad stumbled across the NVA's position. Anyway, Gary still has this pistol in his collection today.


    Anyway, back to some awsome combat footage: some of the real footage I have seen that shows various strafings, tank combat and artillery barrages that is really amazing is some taken at Kursk, Stalingrad and the Seelowe Heigths. Just absolutely mazing that any being, can live through that horror.


    Best regards--Carl.

    Es Ist Verboten Mit Gefangenen In Einzelhaft Zu Sprechen..


    Thanks Carl,


    Is this what his pistol looks like?


    Tokarev TT-33


    That would be something else to have them experiences.


    I have seen footage from the russiona campaign before. It had to be a living hell with the barrage that they were getting.

    Life is hard, its even harder when your stupid!!
    -John Wayne

    And speaking of war tactics. This Wednesday night is the last WW2 seminar at our local historical society, they will start up again in September.
    The subject is battlefield medics. The speaker talking this week was on Normandy beach during the D-Day landings on the 6th of June. Should be very interesting if not a bit humbling. I will try to fill you all in on what he says if I can remember everything.

    Life is hard, its even harder when your stupid!!
    -John Wayne


    Hi Todd, sorry I was not able to reply to you sooner. Your quite welcome. Yep, that is the same kind of pistol that Gary took off that deceased NVA officer. Gary has his pistoil belt and holster as well. It did take Gary some time after the war to be able to cope with what he saw. I also fully agree with you that the Russian campaigns were the worst kinds of living hell that anyone there had to endure. I also know many vets who served on the Eastern Front in WWII. One in particular (the father of a good friend of mine) served at Stalingrad until he and the men with him were captured after trying to escape back to more solid German lines.


    Herr Giesler was a Medical Sergeant attached to a Pioneer unit (Engineering unit) there at Stalingrad. This man was there from the start of the battle until late January 1943. Giesler was attached to the 44th Inf Div (later reformed from evacuated survivors, as the 44th Inf Div: Hoch und Deutschmeister) which was destroyed at Stalingrad. Anyway, in late January, he and a small group of men were given permission to break out of Stalingrad and to try to rescue themselves and to make it back to German lines. Well, I don't know exactly when they left or how long it was before they were captured but; they were eventually captured and sent to Siberia. Herr Giesler was held in a Soviet Prison from 1943 and finally released in 1955.


    While held prisoner, he witnessed thousands of Axis prisoners die in captivity - many he knew and or were friends with.

    Es Ist Verboten Mit Gefangenen In Einzelhaft Zu Sprechen..


    Wow, that is quite the story Carl. I bet Herr Giesler is a very interesting fellow to talk to. The historical society had a german artillery officer from WW2 a couple months back come and speak, but I was not in attendance for that one. Would have been interesting to talk to him.

    Life is hard, its even harder when your stupid!!
    -John Wayne

    Quote

    Originally posted by SXViper@Jun 6 2006, 10:05 PM
    Wow, that is quite the story Carl. I bet Herr Giesler is a very interesting fellow to talk to. The historical society had a german artillery officer from WW2 a couple months back come and speak, but I was not in attendance for that one. Would have been interesting to talk to him.

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    Hi Todd, thank you. Mr. Giesler sure is a nice fellow to know. Susanne (his only child, and my friend) finally convinced him to write down his memories for future generations. I think they plan on having them published in the near future. One book, if ever translated into english, or if a movie was ever made about it, that I highly recommend reading if ever the chance is; Die Arzst von Stalingrad (The Doctor from Stalingrad) I read this book years ago and if I ever thought I knew what hell was; I sure found out differantly after reading that fine book.


    Speaking of that Historical Society you just mentioned. I am wondering iof this is the same one I am thinking about that has Bedo & Souzana Steverding in it? Bedo (Bernard) Steverding and his wife are friends of mine. Bedo was a German Artillery Officer who served on the Eastern Front in WWII. Years ago I met these wonderful people on a military history site and we became friends. Bedo never surrendered and if I recall, I think it took him about six months to make it back to his families home. I think in 1950, I think that was when he moved here to the USA and this fine Gentleman worked for Werner von braun on our rocket programs at what became NASA.


    If this gent is the same gent that spoke at your local historical society, then you bet you that he had some great stories to tell. Bedo gave me the Eastern Front medal that he had been awarded for serving there. If I recall, that was the only decoration that he had recieved that he had managed to hang onto until he gave it to me. I had given him an Iron Cross 2nd class to keep and to use when he did his historical society talks. Bedo wanted to have something original on hand to show the audience an example of an award that Germans were issued in WWII.


    I do not know if Bedo still has that Iron Cross or not but, I still have his Eastern Front medal.


    I know this si a long shot but, if you have time to check into it, can you please ask the historical society if this gentleman had indeed been Bernard Steverding. I lost contact with them about 3 years ago when I moved into an apartment and I sure would love to be in touch with Bedo & Souzana again. last I heard is that they were still living in West Virginia and I think the name of their street was Sorrel Lane? BTW, Souzana is from England.


    Best regards -- carl.

    Es Ist Verboten Mit Gefangenen In Einzelhaft Zu Sprechen..

    It is a wondrous thing that many of our former enemies turn out to be good friends in the long run. It is a shame that the human condition seems to require that man must war on his fellow man. Many soldiers on all sides as individuals are decent folks and if we were to run into them under other circumstances, we would find them to be just regular guys.
    And that is my philosophical sermon for today :headbonk: !!
    Cheers - Jay :D

    Cheers - Jay:beer:
    "Not hardly!!!"


    I will do what I can Carl.


    I was unable to attend tonights meeting as I had a work issue rear its ugly head, so the next time I get over there I will try to check into it. From what I remeber a good friend tell me about the meeting that night the artillery officer was from Minneapolis/St.Paul area.
    On a side note, the meetings are getting so big now that they are moving to a church because there is not a big enough room in the historical room to fit all the people.

    Life is hard, its even harder when your stupid!!
    -John Wayne