WHEN did JW Meet FORD?

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    There are 20 replies in this Thread. The last Post () by Elly.

    • WHEN did JW Meet FORD?

      In light of the discovery of JW in Careful please released February 1926 (Lloyd Hamilton comedy short)

      and JW said "Ford asked Hamilton to give him bit parts"

      it is reasonablee to assume either

      JW was incorrect

      or

      JW met Ford before February 1926.

      PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE

      Can you tell of ANY mention of JW & FORD meeting that you know of.

      If it is in a book please can you tell me the exact text, book title and page number.

      If it from a website please can you tell me the address.

      THANK YOU SO MUCH

      [LEFT][SIZE=1][SIGPIC][/SIGPIC][/SIZE][/LEFT]
      [B][B]Be who you are & say what you feel Because those who mind dont matter & those who matter dont mind[/B][/B]
       

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Elly: spelling ().

    • Re: WHEN did JW Meet FORD?

      Elly, from my research for what it's worth.
      I read in all my books that Duke was very much in college
      in and around 1924/25, and it was his meeting with Tom Mix,
      in June 1926, that Mix invited the young footballers,
      to the Fox Studios for summer jobs.!!
      There is no mention of Duke being involved
      in movie studios before this time!!

      In that's the case, how did he get involved with Lloyd Hamilton,
      if in fact this was earlier?
      Unless of course he met Hamilton later in his series of comedies,
      which would explain Careful Please in 1926.

      So Iron Horse could prove correct.
      I hope your hours of wading through this film are fruitful
      as once again you could be altering history
      and all the associated books will have to updated!!

      Yes he did herd sheep, but in which film?

      Mother Machree is the gaggle of geese, so where were the sheep
      Best Wishes
      Keith
      London- England
    • Re: WHEN did JW Meet FORD?

      for continuity, I have copied these previous posts
      from Duke's Filmography- Discussion

      Elly wrote:

      Hi Keith

      What you say about JW being in school etc is generally what is said in most of the books I have read. However we do know that whilst in school he was also making films

      Brown of Harvard - Production started September 1925

      Careful please - Production started December 1925

      Bardelys - Production started March 1926

      Great K&A train robbery _ Production started May 1926

      All during JW Freshman year.

      I have read a few time JW did part-time jobs to pay for his college. I have never once read for example JW worked at the seven-eleven to suppliment his scholarship.

      Was this what was meant? part-time holiday, weekend or evening work in the movies? Any movies and any studios that would give him work?
      After all of the four films mentioned above only the great K&A train robbery was produced by Fox.

      I am now of the opinion that a lot of references are just clues and when you get a few together, read between the lines, make allowances for faded memories then you follow it up!

      There were sheep in Mother Machree as well as geese.



      Elly wrote:

      Hi Keith

      this also casts doubt over when JW met Ford.

      JW said Ford asked Hamilton to give him bit parts. If this is correct then

      JW met Ford BEFORE 7 February 1926

      and as I have it on good authority that these shorts were 2 months from start of production to release

      JW met Ford Before December 1925


      ethanedwards wrote:

      Elly, I agree!

      We all believed Duke met Ford on the Fox sets,
      from your research, it could be, that he met him on the Hamilton sets.
      However, did he indeed meet Ford, say about the time of
      The Iron Horse etc.

      Interesting stuff, all this!


      Elly wrote:

      Well you must be psychic

      I just waded through the 2 hr 29 min US version of the Iron Horse looking for JW as my thinking was that could have been where JW met Ford and O'Brien and

      there were sheep in the Iron horse and something about that and references to JW being hired to herd sheep was nagging at me.

      It has taken almost 20 hours of stop start slow, ultra slow viewing and the result is I MAY have spotted JW.

      I say MAY because I would like to look at the UK version first. (slightly better quality but shorter at 2hrs 12 minutes)

      The Iron Horse was released 4 October 1925

      BUT it premiered in New York 28 August 1924

      afi.com/members/catalog/DetailView.aspx?s=&Movie=9950

      So was JW in the movies before August 1924?

      I am bothered by the fact that if this is correct why this film was never mentioned by JW or Ford.

      I know Ford was a contrary old...... but he has cited the Iron Horse as his favourite film.

      I am going to post a new topic specifically asking for references about when JW met Ford and see what we can turn up. As well as doing further library research myself.
      Best Wishes
      Keith
      London- England
    • Re: I was shot by the Duke

      I've read so many biographical sketches that say John Wayne's first job in motion pictures was as a prop man. But I heard Duke say on the set of 'Cahill' that his very first job in movies was holding up lighting reflectors during location shooting. It took a strong, athletic guy to withstand heat and wind, and keep those big reflectors steady and directional take after take.
    • Re: I was shot by the Duke

      josephculliton wrote:

      I've read so many biographical sketches that say John Wayne's first job in motion pictures was as a prop man. But I heard Duke say on the set of 'Cahill' that his very first job in movies was holding up lighting reflectors during location shooting. It took a strong, athletic guy to withstand heat and wind, and keep those big reflectors steady and directional take after take.


      Joe,
      I have moved your post here
      as it may be important to thread
      Best Wishes
      Keith
      London- England
    • Re: WHEN did JW Meet FORD?

      wtrayah wrote:

      when did Ford actually recognize him as an actor? Not until Stagecoach. Right?

      Bill,
      Ford probably saw his potential in The Big Trail,
      but that is not the question being asked here.
      We are looking for information as to when the two met!
      Best Wishes
      Keith
      London- England

      The post was edited 1 time, last by ethanedwards ().

    • Re: I was shot by the Duke

      ethanedwards wrote:

      Joe,
      I have moved your post here
      as it may be important to thread


      Thank you for this. if only JW had said on what film or the location!

      I think it is also important to gather as many quotes together to compare them and see if we can connect the dots so to speak.

      JW said Tom Mix gave him a job which is often quoted as his start in the movies but JW never said it his FIRST job.

      [LEFT][SIZE=1][SIGPIC][/SIGPIC][/SIZE][/LEFT]
      [B][B]Be who you are & say what you feel Because those who mind dont matter & those who matter dont mind[/B][/B]
       
    • Re: WHEN did JW Meet FORD?

      Elly,

      Here's a paragraph from John Wayne: American by Randy Roberts and James S. Olson:


      -----------
      Abandoned by Mix, Duke soon met a more valuable benefactor. One day John Ford saw Duke working on a set. Ford called out to him, "You one of Howard Jones's bright boys?" Duke said, "Yes," and Ford then said, "Let's see you get down in position." Duke had barely got into a three-point stance before Ford kicked out both of his hands and sent him sprawling in the dirt. Ford laughed and said, "And you call yourself a football player. I'll bet you couldn't even take me out." Duke said, "I'd like to try." In the next ten seconds, Duke ran at Ford, drove his leg into the director's chest, and sent him sprawling. The set was absolutely quiet. Everybody waited for the explosion of Ford's legendary wrath, for Duke to be banished forever from Hollywood. Instead Ford burst out laughing, taking an immediate liking to the young man who would not be intimidated. The encounter changed both of their lives.
      -----------


      Now here's the same story as told in Searching for John Ford by Joseph McBride:


      -----------
      Morrison began working at Fox in the summer before his sophomore year of 1926, lugging around furniture and other props and serving as a general handyman for such directors as Raoul Walsh and Frank Borzage. He soon caught the eye of Ford.

      Tall, ruggedly handsome, and incongruously graceful for a football lineman, Morrison struck the kind of effortlessly impressive male figure that the former "Bull" Feeney wished he could have been. Ford found his physical ideal in the Duke, his cinematic equivalent of Michelangelo's David. So, naturally, Ford had to mask his true feelings and all they might have implied by playing the tough guy and cruelly tormenting the young man. An avid fan of USC football and a friend of the team's coach, Howard Jones, Ford encountered Duke working on a set and immediately put him through a macho hazing ritual.

      "You one of Howard Jones's bright boys?" the director asked. Let's see you get down in position."

      As Duke assumed a tackle's three-point stance, Ford suddenly kicked his hand, knocking him into the dirt. "And you call yourself a football player," the director sneered. "I'll bet you couldn't even take me out."

      Wayne recalled what happened next: "So, not being interested in a motion picture career at the time, I said, 'Let's try it again.'" When Ford assumed his position, Wayne "kicked him and hit him in the chest. He looked up with a little surprise and there was a deadly silence. And right then was the deciding point in my career in motion pictures."

      Ford finally said they should get back to work: "That's enough of this bullshit."

      The director hired Morrison as a propman on Mother Machree and Four Sons. Ford later recalled, "I could see that here was a boy who was working for something--not like most of the other guys, just hanging around to pick up a few fast bucks. Duke was really ambitious and willing to work. Inside of a month or six weeks we were fast friends, and I used to advise him and throw him a bit part now and then."
      -----------


      It's obvious from the wording that this was the first time Ford and Morrison met.

      More evidence, this time from the PBS American Masters episode John Ford/John Wayne: The Filmmaker & the Legend. John Ford: "Duke was an undergraduate at USC when I first saw him...." This is probably the introduction quoted above, although Morrison enrolled at USC in the fall of 1925. Perhaps they had only seen each other previously on the Fox lot, a place where Morrison was working fulltime during the summer of 1926.

      If John Ford asked Ham Hamilton to give Morrison bit parts, perhaps something was lost with time and the recollections were distorted. John Wayne remembered it that way but maybe -- since Ford was an avid USC fan and a friend of the coach -- Ford put word out to the USC team via the coach, Howard Jones, to visit Hamilton for work. In other words, the advice was not specific to Morrison but to the team in general.

      Wayne even said, "Ham Hamilton was the director of those films.", yet that wasn't true. This illustrates how time can distort the facts.

      There's also the chance that Morrison doesn't even appear in Careful Please, and that we are all mistaken by someone who resembles him.
    • Re: WHEN did JW Meet FORD?

      RoughRider wrote:

      Elly,
      If John Ford asked Ham Hamilton to give Morrison bit parts, perhaps something was lost with time and the recollections were distorted. John Wayne remembered it that way but maybe -- since Ford was an avid USC fan and a friend of the coach -- Ford put word out to the USC team via the coach, Howard Jones, to visit Hamilton for work. In other words, the advice was not specific to Morrison but to the team in general.
      Wayne even said, "Ham Hamilton was the director of those films.", yet that wasn't true. This illustrates how time can distort the facts.
      There's also the chance that Morrison doesn't even appear in Careful Please, and that we are all mistaken by someone who resembles him.

      Hello Neil
      Thank you so much for these references I have the books so can look up the page numbers.

      The more I look into this the more I come back to Ford and JW meeting whilst JW was working at Fox on the great K&A train robbery. (Tom Mix). Directed by Lewis Seiler (Production commenced May 1926)

      I am in the process of reviewing the Iron Horse Directed by John Ford and released October 1925. I am very sceptical because the premiere was actually August 1924 and I cannot believe that if JW worked on this film that neither he nor Ford ever mentioned it.

      Of course there are a few more films Directed by Ford before Mother Machree and I will also review those. (as well as more Hamilton films)

      Often, I find I am doing things to DISPROVE something rather than prove it. For me that is equally as satisfying given that I want the facts and not the supposition.

      AND

      JW being mistaken about Ford asking Hamilton to give him bit parts. As you rightly point out JW was mistaken about Hamilton being a Director so he could also have been mistaken about Ford being the one who asked Hamilton to give him bit parts. Also JW was picking up work with other studios before he met Ford so its not hard to leave Ford out of the work JW did with Hamilton.

      I have been digging around today trying to find out when Ford met Hamilton and although Hamilton did work on the Fox lot it was 1917-1919 BEFORE Ford started at Fox in 1921. I cannot link the two professionally but that is not to say that socially they were not linked.

      I can however link Hamilton to Tom Mix as they were on the Fox lot at the same time! Just to throw a spanner in the already full tool box LOL

      AND

      Yes, as sad as that would be, there is the chance that we are all mistaken about JW in Careful please.

      [LEFT][SIZE=1][SIGPIC][/SIGPIC][/SIZE][/LEFT]
      [B][B]Be who you are & say what you feel Because those who mind dont matter & those who matter dont mind[/B][/B]
       

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Elly ().

    • Re: WHEN did JW Meet FORD?

      Could it be that Hamilton saw John Wayne on a film set moving furniture, holding lights and reflectors, etc, and perhaps saw potential in the young Wayne, and then mentioned it to Ford (whom he may have known socially), and Ford then told him to give Wayne a shot in front of the camera. This would have happened before Wayne and Ford even met, and Ford may have later watched the Hamilton films to see if Wayne may have had that certain something in front of the camera, and then, upon recognizing him on the Fox lot, given Wayne a shot in Mother Machree. With this theory (and it is nothing more than speculative theory), the Wayne and Ford would both be correct in saying that they met on the set of Mother Machree (as quoted in John Wayne: American by Randy Roberts and James S. Olson, and Joseph McBride in Searching for John Ford), and Wayne would still be correct in saying that Ford had spoken with Hamilton regarding putting Wayne in front of the camera (and remember that he WAS in front of the camera on several occasions before Mother Machree)


      Also, as Wayne’s freshman year at USC was September 1925 through May 1926, he would have still been in High School when The Iron Horse was in production (as it premiered in New York on 28 August 1924, and production would have been underway at least May-July 1924). Based on this, I don’t see how Wayne could have appeared in The Iron Horse at the age of 16 or 17.


      As for Careful Please (1926), I am convinced that the extra Elly has recognized as John Wayne, actually is John Wayne. Yes, he was in school, however, it is not outside the realm of possibility that he did some extra work while he was in school. An extra is not necessarily needed on a film set for the duration of production, only on those days where he would appear in a scene. As the Hamilton shorts were very low budget, focusing on laughs rather than production values, it is quite conceivable that Wayne worked for a day or two on Careful Please, as well as likely doing the same on other films.
      "I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I require the same from them" It may be time worn, but it's the best life-creed I know.
    • Re: WHEN did JW Meet FORD?

      Hi Bob

      See my reply to Neil below. I too think JW met Ford at Fox in 1926 but I think Ford spotted him probably whilst JW was working on the Great K&A train robbery.

      Both of the references Neil quoted actually say JW was working on a lot and one goes on to say Ford then hired him to prop Mother Machree.

      What we know to date is that the only film JW made at FOX before Mother Machree is The great K&A train robbery.

      As far as I have been able to establish Hamilton shorts were NOT made at Fox other than these:

      1917
      Damaged, No Goods
      1917
      Roaring Lions and Wedding Bells
      1918
      The Son of a Hun
      1918
      Mongrels
      1918
      Roaring Lions on the Midnight Express
      1918
      A Tight Squeeze
      1918
      A Waiter's Wasted Life
      1918
      Hungry Lions in a Hospital
      1919 Feb
      His Musical Sneeze


      And after this they were made at facilities hired from the poverty row studios. I am working on trying to pinpoint this more accurately.

      Ford's first film at Fox was Just pals released November 1920.

      I like your theory but I think it is more likely that JW's memory suffered from the length of time passed and one or two slugs of tequila LOL

      After all he said himself he could not remember all of the films he had been in.

      And althought I said we could all be mistaken about it being JW in careful please I would still bet my shirt on it being him!

      [LEFT][SIZE=1][SIGPIC][/SIGPIC][/SIZE][/LEFT]
      [B][B]Be who you are & say what you feel Because those who mind dont matter & those who matter dont mind[/B][/B]
       

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Elly: spelling ().

    • Re: WHEN did JW Meet FORD?

      I agree, Bob, that it isn't outside the realm of possibility that he did some extra work while he was in school. These were tough times for many people and the work would have paid well. Plus the physical comedy evident in Careful Please is perfect for the athletic. Not to mention that many people in Hollywood were USC fans.

      I found it interesting that Wayne, according to actor Iron Eyes Cody, even screen tested for MGM and "didn't pass". It makes me wonder what else he may have done on the MGM lot.

      As quoted previously, Wayne worked as a general handyman for Raoul Walsh and Frank Borzage while at Fox. Looking into things, I see that Borzage worked exclusively for Fox around this time. But Raoul Walsh was working on the Paramount lot until What Price Glory, so Wayne probably was a prop man on that Fox film. Although released in August 1927, it premiered in November 1926; production itself would probably tie in with the summer of 1926. So many of the films from this time were held back and modified for general release with the advent of sound.
    • Re: WHEN did JW Meet FORD?

      Thank you all so much for taking the time to give me your input.

      It was just a question that occured to me and has temporarily distracted me from my main task right now.

      I have weighed it all up and am prepared to go with the simplest explaination for now in that JW was mistaken. I say for now as I hope in the course of enquiries I am making and my main task we may get to know more.

      My main task given the Careful please discovery, is to list ALL possible films 1925 - 1931 JW could have worked on. THIS I HAVE DONE and it is posted on this board.

      I have included All films by these Directors that were filmed on the Fox lot: Walsh, Borzage, Ford, Hawks,

      I have included Taurog (who directed Hamilton films which were not filmed at Fox but during the same period did direct films without Hamilton that were filmed at Fox.

      I have included all Hamilton films of the period (as far as I can ascertain to date) none of which were filmed on the fox lot.

      What Price glory? is on the list as it qualifies for being of the right period, directed by Walsh (assisted by Ford) and it was filmed at Fox.

      I have included any and all of the above from January 1925 and it runs to 8 pages.

      Obviously as JW was picking up work from other studios during this period I should have just looked at all FILMS regardless of who was directing, where they were filmed and who was the production company.

      HOWEVER, I do not have enough years left in my lifetime to source and view what would be an enormous list.

      So that is why my list is as it is and I am starting with what IMHO are those films most likely to be associated with JW.

      Then I wanted to find and view as many of these films from my list as I can to confirm whether or not JW was in them.

      As I had to hand a few poor quality prints of Hamilton shorts and the Iron Horse - and as I was side tracked by the question of when JW met Ford I looked at the Iron Horse first. It was included in my list after all as a possible JW film.

      Even though I posted the screen captures from the iron horse of POSSIBLE sightings of JW, given the date of the premiere and therefore the date of filming and the fact that such an important film as this was never mentioned by JW or Ford I have to conclude this is "NOT PROVEN"

      So this is where I am at right now and I have a marathon ahead of me.

      I will keep you posted as and when anything turns up after all I would like this board to be "Where you heard it first!"

      Thanks again for all of your help which is always much appreciated.

      [LEFT][SIZE=1][SIGPIC][/SIGPIC][/SIZE][/LEFT]
      [B][B]Be who you are & say what you feel Because those who mind dont matter & those who matter dont mind[/B][/B]
       
    • Re: The 26 Bar Ranch

      I have copied this over from Bill's 26 Bar Ranch thread

      William T Brooks wrote:


      I SEE OVER ON ONE OF THE PAGES OF THIS SITE THAT SOME OF YOU WANT TO KNOW HOW JOHN FORD AND THE DUKE MET UP WITH EACH OTHER ? :wink_smile:
      HERE IS A VIDEO THAT WILL SHOW YOU WHAT HISTORY HAD TO SAY ABOUT HOW THEY MET UP WITH EACH OTHER !!!
      CHILIBILL
      :cowboy:
      youtube.com/watch?v=HWHms9nLl-8


      However it doesn't say when or where, and in which movie they met!
      Best Wishes
      Keith
      London- England

      The post was edited 1 time, last by ethanedwards ().