Dances with Wolves (1990)

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  • DANCES WITH WOLVES


    DIRECTED AND PRODUCED BY KEVIN COSTNER
    TIG/ ORION PICTURE CORPORATION


    Information From IMDb


    Plot Summary
    Lt. John Dunbar is dubbed a hero after he accidentally leads Union troops
    to a victory during the Civil War. He requests a position on the western frontier,
    but finds it deserted. He soon finds out he is not alone, but meets a wolf he dubs
    "Two-socks" and a curious Indian tribe. Dunbar quickly makes friends with the tribe,
    and discovers a white woman who was raised by the Indians.
    He gradually earns the respect of these native people, and sheds his white-man's ways.
    Written by Greg Bole


    Full Cast
    Kevin Costner ... Lt. John J. Dunbar
    Mary McDonnell ... Stands With A Fist
    Graham Greene ... Kicking Bird
    Rodney A. Grant ... Wind In His Hair
    Floyd 'Red Crow' Westerman ... Ten Bears (as Floyd Red Crow Westerman)
    Tantoo Cardinal ... Black Shawl
    Robert Pastorelli ... Timmons
    Charles Rocket ... Lieutenant Elgin
    Maury Chaykin ... Major Fambrough
    Jimmy Herman ... Stone Calf
    Nathan Lee Chasing His Horse ... Smiles A Lot
    Michael Spears ... Otter
    Jason R. Lone Hill ... Worm
    Tony Pierce ... Spivey
    Doris Leader Charge ... Pretty Shield
    Michael Horton ... Captain Cargill - extended version
    Tom Everett ... Sergeant Pepper
    Larry Joshua ... Sergeant Bauer
    Kirk Baltz ... Edwards
    Wayne Grace ... Major
    Donald Hotton ... General Tide
    Annie Costner ... Christine
    Conor Duffy ... Willie
    Elisa Daniel ... Christine's Mother
    Percy White Plume ... Big Warrior
    John Tail ... Escort Warrior
    Steve Reevis ... Sioux #1 / Warrior #1
    Sheldon Peters Wolfchild ... Sioux #2 / Warrior #2 (as Sheldon Wolfchild)
    Wes Studi ... Toughest Pawnee
    Buffalo Child ... Pawnee #1
    Clayton Big Eagle ... Pawnee #2
    Richard Leader Charge ... Pawnee #3
    Redwing Ted Nez ... Sioux Warrior
    Marvin Holy ... Sioux Warrior
    Raymond Newholy ... Sioux Courier
    David J. Fuller ... Kicking Bird's Son
    Ryan White Bull ... Kicking Bird's Eldest Son
    Otakuye Conroy ... Kicking Bird's Daughter
    Maretta Big Crow ... Village Mother
    Steven Chambers ... Guard (as Steve Chambers)
    William H. Burton ... General's Aide
    Bill W. Curry ... Confederate Cavalryman
    Nick Thompson ... Confederate Soldier
    Carter Hanner ... Confederate Soldier
    Kent Hays ... Wagon Driver
    Robert Goldman ... Union Soldier
    Frank P. Costanza ... Tucker
    James A. Mitchell ... Ray
    R.L. Curtin ... Ambush Wagon Driver
    Justin ... Cisco
    Teddy ... Two Socks
    Buck ... Two Socks
    Jim Wilson ... Doctor Who Examines Dunbar (uncredited)


    Writing credits
    Michael Blake (novel) (screenplay)


    Produced
    Bonnie Arnold .... associate producer
    Kevin Costner .... producer
    Jake Eberts .... executive producer
    Derek Kavanagh .... line producer
    Jim Wilson .... producer


    Original Music
    John Barry


    Cinematography
    Dean Semler


    Trivia
    * In the opening scene where two doctors are examining John Dunbar, the man on the table is Kevin Costner's stand-in. The two people playing the doctors are actually the film's producer, Jim Wilson on the left and director/star Costner on the right. The voices were dubbed by other actors.


    * Graham Greene, who plays Kicking Bird, also plays Edgar Montrose in "The Red Green Show" (1991). In one episode of that series, Edgar mentions "Dances With Wolves", and says the "native guy" (Kicking Bird) should have gotten the Oscar.


    * With the exception of the opening Civil War scenes (which were shot last), the film was shot in sequence because of the weather. They needed it to correspond with the time sequence in the film because of so much outdoor shooting. Most films are not shot in sequence.


    * The feasting scene after the buffalo hunt, where Dunbar and Wind in His Hair become friends and exchange their gifts, was actually shot indoors inside a Quonset hut because it was so cold outside.


    * Filmed during a drought, water had to be trucked into the Fort Sedgwick location to fill up the pond.


    * Two Socks was played by two wolves. One was called Buck and the other was called Teddy, and both were kept on set at all times.


    * Approximately 25% of the dialog is not in English.


    * Many of the native Indians were visibly moved by the scene where the Sioux encounter a field full of dead, skinned buffalo.


    * The buffalo herd comprised 2000 animals, the largest herd in America.


    * Only one take a day could be made of the buffalo stampede as the animals would often run a distance of 10 miles. It would take the wranglers all day to round them up again.


    * Fort Sedgwick actually had a floor that could be lowered several feet for doing low-angle shots.


    * Paint was used to create the effect of a swathe of land flattened by buffalo.


    * For the scene where Two Socks is being shot at by the soldiers, the wolf was actually hemmed into a small pen with puffs of smoke popping off around him. The animal was chained within the pen to prevent him escaping.


    * Close to a million feet of film was shot in total.


    * 9 cameras were utilized in the buffalo hunt.


    * The man seen initially telling the wolf to go home when Dunbar is riding out to visit his friends is actually the trainer. He was bitten in the leg when the wolf chased him, so Costner had to run himself during the next shot. He kept throwing pieces of raw meat to keep the wolf from biting him.


    * There were two wolves used. One had to have the milky white socks painted on him.


    * The scene where we see Cisco jumping around in the corral just before the Sioux party steals him was a 'stolen' shot. The horse was just letting off steam, and they caught part of it and slipped it in because it looked so good and fit the scene.


    * Graham Greene's character, Kicking Bird, is supposed to be the adoptive father of Stands With A Fist, played by Mary McDonnell; however, in real life, McDonnell is actually 2 months older than Greene.


    * During the scene where the buffalo is charging at the young Indian, the buffalo is actually charging at a pile of its favorite treat: Oreo cookies.


    * Viggo Mortensen was originally cast to play John Dunbar.


    * The buffalo hunt and several other sequences were filmed on the 55,000-acre Triple U Ranch owned by Roy Houck, who had served as South Dakota's lieutenant governor in the 1950s; he gave the filmmakers considerable assistance in managing the logistics of the sequence.


    * Two of the domesticated buffalo used in the production were borrowed from singer Neil Young.


    * Because of budgetary overruns and general industry reluctance to invest in a Western, Kevin Costner was forced to dig deep into his own pockets to make up the film's $18 million budget. As it then went on to gross over $100 million, he himself earned an estimated $40 million from his original investment.


    * To add realism to the movie, a language coach was brought in to teach Lakota to cast members who did not know how to speak it. Because of the difficulty in learning the language, the "gendered speech" aspects of the language were omitted from the lessons. When native speakers of Lakota saw the finished film, they found it amusing to hear Lakota warriors talking like women.


    * To prevent any possible animal cruelty Kevin Costner's Tig Productions spent $250,000 on animatronic buffalo to be used in the climactic buffalo hunt.


    * Michael Blake wrote a spec screenplay in the early 1980s. When Kevin Costner came across the project in 1986, he suggested to Blake that he should turn it into a novel, thereby increasing his chances of getting it made into a film. Blake did so and, after many rejections, found a publisher in 1988. Costner immediately snapped up the movie rights with an eye to directing it himself.


    * The highest grossing Western of all time, with a domestic take of $184 million. It achieved this figure without ever reaching #1 on the box-office charts.


    * Filmed in South Dakota, which is mainly wide-open rolling hills. The cornfield at the beginning of the film had to be specially grown, and the few trees that were on the chosen location had to have their leaves painted different shades of red and brown to signify fall.


    * Pope John Paul II once mentioned that John Barry's score was one of his favorite pieces of music.


    * Kevin Costner originally considered casting Marlon Brando in the role later played by Maury Chaykin.


    * That is Rodney A. Grant's real long, flowing hair. He does not wear a wig in the film.


    * As a joke, most of the cast and crew assigned each other Indian names. Editor Neil Travis was "Over the Hill" and the script supervisor was "Sand In Her Teeth" because she used to smile a lot.


    * Those are actual dead deer that Kevin Costner pulls out of the river. To look authentic the carcasses had to be heavy, so animals killed on the highways were collected for the scene.


    * Robert Pastorelli wore a slightly raised breastplate for the scene in which his character Timmons is hit by arrows.


    * Cinematographer Dean Semler's daughter was a horse wrangler on the film. She broke both of her wrists when the horse she was riding was suddenly spooked and threw her.


    * The studio wanted the final cut to be 2 hours 20 minutes. They had to settle for Kevin Costner's cut of 3 hours.


    * This is the last movie that editor Neil Travis cut using physical film. He has since moved on to digital editing, using Montage and Avid.


    * Graham Greene's first reaction when he learned that most of the film was going to be in Lakota was, "I don't speak that".


    * Kevin Costner's spreading out of his arms while doing his suicide run at the start of the film was a completely spontaneous gesture that took his stunt coordinator by surprise.


    * John Barry agreed to score the film immediately after reading the script.


    * Dean Semler first had an inkling about how important his Oscar win was to his native Australia when he was on a night flight to Sydney and the stewardess asked him if he had it with him and if he would mind showing it to the passengers.


    * Kevin Costner's daughter Annie Costner, playing Stands With A Fist as a child, is seen running away from the Pawnee party that killed her family in the dream sequence. She looks back over each shoulder as she runs because Costner told her to look over her right shoulder and she didn't know her right from her left - she was only 6 years old at the time.


    * Director Kevin Reynolds received "special thanks" in the credits due to his helping Kevin Costner direct the famous buffalo hunt scene.


    * Michael Blake initially intended the story to be a screenplay, but after working with Kevin Costner and producer Jim Wilson on an earlier film, he was convinced by them to write it as a novel first - both to ensure the story would be told completely without having to work within the bounds of a standard-length script, and also because they believed the story would be more easily sold as a novel than as a screenplay.


    * The film ran over budget, forcing Kevin Costner to make up the overages personally. That caused rumors that the film would be another out-of-control, disappointing western like Heaven's Gate (1980). In fact, some studio people were referring to it as "Kevin's Gate". It went on to win the first Best Picture Oscar for a western since Cimarron (1931), over 50 years before it.


    * The very last scene shot in the film was the one where Kevin Costner rides in to tell them the buffalo had arrived, one of the few out-of-sequence shots in the film. While the cameras were on him, riding only in pants and a shirt, the cast and crew were in heavy coats because of the freezing weather.


    * Lt. John Dunbar carries two guns in the film--a Henry 1860 rifle made specially by Uberti and a Colt 1851 Navy cap-and-ball revolver.


    * The liver that Wind In His Hair proffers to Dunbar after the buffalo hunt are actually made of cranberry Jell-o.


    * Just as Timmons bids farewell to Lieutenant Dunbar at Fort Sedgwick, he commands the two lead horses (of four horses in total) to a start with a "Jake n' Jim!" Jake Eberts and Jim Wilson are the names of the film's Executive Producer and Producer, respectively.


    Goofs


    * Continuity: The canteen tied to Cisco's saddle.


    * Continuity: Pickled egg on the face of Dunbar's wagon driver.


    * Continuity: The size of the jerky that Dunbar is offering to the wolf. Alternately, he may be holding it in a different way.


    * Anachronisms: The flag that John Dunbar was flying when meeting with the Indians was of the wrong era.


    * Crew or equipment visible: One of the wolves can be seen wearing a choke collar.


    * Factual errors: The tribe members do not use proverbs or formulaic expressions, which characteristically function to preserve knowledge and tradition in an oral (pre-writing) culture.


    * Anachronisms: An elder at the fireside can be seen wearing a modern day collar underneath his costume.


    * Factual errors: Three birds flying over are identified as geese. They are, in fact, cranes.


    * Anachronisms: A dove in an old fort is a Eurasian collared dove, nonexistent at that time in North America.


    * Audio/visual unsynchronized: During the beginning of the great buffalo shooting you can clearly hear someone shout, "Here we go" while the camera is focused on Dunbar. (This audio track can be heard on the European (4 hour) version)


    * Crew or equipment visible: When the Sioux and John Dunbar are going on the buffalo hunt and they come upon the slaughtered/skinned buffalo, a crew member can be seen lying down on the ground in the background behind the Sioux passing on horseback.


    * Revealing mistakes: Outlines of the disks anchoring the prop arrows can be seen under Timmons' shirt when he is on his back after the attack.


    * Revealing mistakes: When Dunbar is shooting the 1860 Henry rifle, the cartridge indicator is seen in its rear-most position - indicating empty - and remains there throughout the entire action sequence.


    * Continuity: The window in front of which Fambrough is standing, opens and closes a couple of times before and after he commits suicide.


    * Continuity: At first, John Dunbar's flag is ripped like a forked tongue, but then is not ripped later on. It goes back to ripped near the end of the film.


    * Continuity: Throughout the movie, Lt. Dunbar wears the yellow shoulder boards of a cavalry officer on his army jacket. In the scenes leading up to just before the Sioux war party leaves camp to attack the Pawnee, Lt. Dunbar has traded this jacket with Wind In His Hair for a breast plate. In the next sequence, the Sioux war party is leaving camp to attack the Pawnee and Wind In His Hair is seen wearing this jacket while on horseback, but the shoulder boards on it are now blue, the color worn by infantry officers.


    * Anachronisms: Electric power lines are visible during the buffalo hunt.


    * Revealing mistakes: After the Sioux rescue John Dunbar at the creek, one of the Sioux walks past the dead Spivey, splashing water in his face and Spivey blinks.


    * Anachronisms: During the Pawnee raid on the Sioux camp, a Pawnee can be seen wearing a Pattern 1883 cavalry greatcoat (distinguished by the yellow lining of the cape). Greatcoats in the 1860s had no yellow lining.


    * Revealing mistakes: When Dunbar and Timmons are leaving for Ft. Sedgewick you can see a second set of reins leading back underneath the wagon seat. There is also a curtain under the seat to conceal the real driver. In later scenes the curtain is gone.


    * Continuity: When Dunbar first inspects the two buildings which are Ft. Sedgewick, his beard stubble is extremely short. As he goes from one building to the next, his beard is suddenly at about a 3-4 day growth.


    * Errors in geography: When Kicking Bird takes Dunbar to the "Sacred Place" (which in the "The Making of 'Dances With Wolves'" is said to be the Black Hills) Mount Moran (The Grand Tetons in Jackson Hole, Wyoming) stands prominently on the right side of the panorama.


    * Continuity: A noticeable dorsal stripe on Cisco the horse's back disappears and reappears throughout.


    * Revealing mistakes: When Dunbar hears a noise outside and runs to the door hitting his head on the door-frame, he falls down unconscious. When coming to, the blood has run down his face instead of across his forehead.


    * Continuity: When Sgt Bauer is running away from the river fight, he is holding a Remington Model 1858 Revolver, but when he encounters Smiles A Lot on the bank of the river and tries to shoot him (the gun misfires), he is holding a Colt 1860 Army revolver


    * Continuity: When Dunbar arrives back at the battlefield from the surgery, there is an apple which goes from half eaten to barely started.


    * Anachronisms: The apple beside Dunbar at the battlefield, after his return from the surgery, is a variety that had not been developed at that time.


    * Continuity: Having unloaded the wagon at the fort, Dunbar pauses for a moment and glances down. There is a rag or cloth at his foot which disappears a moment later.


    * Continuity: When remembering her family was killed by the Pawnee when she was a child, Stands With A Fist clearly has no marks or scars on her wrists. She had slit her wrist only a short period of time before.


    * Anachronisms: When Dunbar is dragging a dead deer out the pond at Ft. Sedgwick, there are tire tracks in the hillside in the background.


    * Errors made by characters (possibly deliberate errors by the filmmakers): Ten Bears was a Comanche Chief not Sioux


    * Anachronisms: When Kicking Bird flees from a naked Dunbar on their first encounter, modern building structures can be seen on the horizon, to the right of the picture.


    * Anachronisms: In 1863, General Tide is shown wearing the three stars of a lieutenant general. There were no lieutenant generals in the United States Army at that time.


    * Continuity: When Lt Dunbar first encounters Stands with a Fist grieving over her dead husband, the length of her hair varies from scene to scene.


    * Anachronisms: The flag flying at Ft. Sedgwick is the flag with 50 stars rather than the flag used during the Civil War.


    Memorable Quotes


    Filming Locations
    Badlands National Park, Interior, South Dakota, USA
    (Fort Hays to Fort Sedgewick Wagon journey)
    Belle Fourche River, South Dakota, USA
    Black Hills, South Dakota, USA
    (winter camp)
    Fort Pierre, South Dakota, USA
    (buffalo scenes)
    Interior, South Dakota, USA
    (Fort Hays to Fort Sedgewick Wagon journey)
    Jackson Hole, Wyoming, USA
    (2nd unit photography - landscape)
    Jackson, Wyoming, USA
    (2nd unit photography - landscape)
    Pierre, South Dakota, USA
    (near) (buffalo scenes)
    Rapid City, South Dakota, USA
    Sage Creek Wilderness Area, Badlands National Park, Interior, South Dakota, USA
    (Fort Hays to Fort Sedgewick Wagon journey)
    South Dakota, USA
    Spearfish Canyon, Black Hills, South Dakota, USA
    (winter camp)
    Tomahawk Drive, Fort Hays, Kansas, USA
    Triple U Standing Butte Ranch - 26314 Tatanka Road, Fort Pierre, South Dakota, USA
    Wyoming, USA

    Best Wishes
    Keith
    London- England

    Edited 5 times, last by ethanedwards ().

  • Dances with Wolves is a 1990 American epic Western film
    directed by, produced by, and starring Kevin Costner.
    It is a film adaptation of the 1988 book of the same name by Michael Blake
    and tells the story of a Union Army lieutenant who travels to the American frontier
    to find a military post and his dealings with a group of Lakota Indians.


    Costner developed the film with an initial budget of $15 million.
    Dances with Wolves had high production values and won seven Academy Awards
    including Best Picture and the Golden Globe Award for Best Motion Picture – Drama.
    Much of the dialogue is spoken in Lakota with English subtitles.
    It was shot in South Dakota and Wyoming, and translated by Albert White Hat
    the chair of the Lakota Studies Department at Sinte Gleska University.


    The film is credited as a leading influence for the revitalization
    of the Western genre of filmmaking in Hollywood.


    In 2007, Dances with Wolves was selected for preservation in the
    United States National Film Registry by the Library of Congress
    as being "culturally, historically, or aesthetically significant".



    Kevin Costner has come in for alot of criticism,
    and this board has been no exception!!
    However that apart, there is no denying that this film
    was a masterpiece.
    Coming in at 3 hours long, and going so over budget,
    Costner himself had to 'cough up',
    the movie became only the 2nd western to win
    an Academy Award for the Best Picture,
    the last one was Cimarron (1931) 50 years before!!
    It is probably the most credible movie, for putting over,
    the Native American's side of the things.


    John Barry was so impressed with the script,
    he immediately agreed to writing the music,
    and what beautiful music it was, even Pope John Paul II was a fan!!



    Dances With Wolves became the highest grossing Western
    of all time, with a domestic take of $184 million.
    It achieved this figure without ever reaching
    #1 on the box-office charts.

    Best Wishes
    Keith
    London- England

    Edited once, last by ethanedwards ().

  • I love this movie. I've heard complaints about it being too long, but I even went out and got the 4-hour version. It is so well made and keeps you in the story. Like you said, Keith, it is a masterpiece. I am not among the Costner haters here. I like many of his films and think he is a good actor. And apparently, he knows a good story when he hears one, putting his own money up to get it done. This is a very beautifully filmed picture as well. He captured the beauty of the frontier and the self containing life of the Indian befor the white man came and....well, you know the story. Great film all around!

    Mark

    "I couldn't go to sleep at night if the director didn't call 'cut'. "

  • I like "Dances with Wolves" too! It was a great Western movie and the running time of 4h is not too long. Kevin Costner and Mary McDonnell did an wonderful job in this Western!

    I met Mary McDonnell a few weeks ago in Germany at a SciFi-Convention, because at the moment she works on the SciFi-series "Battlestar Galactica". She is a very nice and fine lady and gave intelligent answers to the questions of the fans. I got her autograph and we did a photo together.

    About Kevin Costner I can´t say much. I don´t know more about him, than that he had done four good Western movies: Silverado, The Legend of Wyatt Earp, Dances with Wolves and Open Range.

    "Never apologize. It´s a sign of weakness."

  • I'll have to go against the grain here in saying I thought this film was terrible and sucked Prune Pits all day.

    My disliking for this film has nothing to do w/ Kevin Costner either. The movie started out fine but, when he decided to do his "suicidal horse ride" that was a bit too much. After that scene, the movie went down all the way. I saw it at the theater from beginning to ending and, it just didn't "click" w/ me.

    Es Ist Verboten Mit Gefangenen In Einzelhaft Zu Sprechen..

  • I love this movie. I've heard complaints about it being too long, but I even went out and got the 4-hour version. It is so well made and keeps you in the story. Like you said, Keith, it is a masterpiece. I am not among the Costner haters here. I like many of his films and think he is a good actor. And apparently, he knows a good story when he hears one, putting his own money up to get it done. This is a very beautifully filmed picture as well. He captured the beauty of the frontier and the self containing life of the Indian befor the white man came and....well, you know the story. Great film all around!

    Mark



    I agree with your assesment of the film Mark. I thought when it forst came out that it was a great movie and I too purchased the extended version.

    Sorry Carl that you didn't like it. Why didn't you like the "raising of the arms" scene?

    Life is hard, its even harder when your stupid!!
    -John Wayne

  • Believe it or not, I have never seen Dances with Wolves, and don't have any particular desire to do so. However, the Mrs. informs me that we own it, so I'll have to dig it out one of these days and watch it. Of course, as old as I am now, I may have seen it and not remember :shades_smile:.

    Chester :newyear:


    Hi Jim
    You are doing a big loss to missing this film.
    It's a great western film in recent years,i think.
    especially,buffalo stampede scene is splendid.
    The buffalos in this movie may be relatives of buffalos in How the West Was Won.

    regards,
    Taka

    Sometimes kids ask me what a pro is. I just point to the Duke.
    ~Steve McQueen~

  • Jim, I agree with Taka that you are missing a very good movie. Try to watch it and I think you will really enjoy it.

    Life is hard, its even harder when your stupid!!
    -John Wayne

  • I agree with your assesment of the film Mark. I thought when it forst came out that it was a great movie and I too purchased the extended version.

    Sorry Carl that you didn't like it. Why didn't you like the "raising of the arms" scene?



    Hi Todd no problem ;-)) Why I didn't like that scene, well part of it is because that he was not shot off his horse by any of the Confederates who fired at him-making it totally unbelievable. Also, it must not be forgotten that the majority of Confederate Soldiers who served, were much more experianced in handling and firing weapons than most Billy Yanks were--because also, most of the CSA guys came from rural areas and wereall practically born with guns in their hands. With having so many soldiers shooting at Costner, he should have been a dead Duck.

    Not to stay off topic too long but, I do like The Untouchables ;-))

    Es Ist Verboten Mit Gefangenen In Einzelhaft Zu Sprechen..

  • Hi Todd no problem ;-)) Why I didn't like that scene, well part of it is because that he was not shot off his horse by any of the Confederates who fired at him-making it totally unbelievable. Also, it must not be forgotten that the majority of Confederate Soldiers who served, were much more experianced in handling and firing weapons than most Billy Yanks were--because also, most of the CSA guys came from rural areas and wereall practically born with guns in their hands. With having so many soldiers shooting at Costner, he should have been a dead Duck.

    Not to stay off topic too long but, I do like The Untouchables ;-))



    While I don't disagree that they should have killed him. I think you might have missed the point of that scene, especially it being the opening scene. The way I interpreted the scene was that there must have been a higher power looking out for him because he was not meant to die on that battle field as even he thought he was going to do. If you remember, he didn't want to loose his leg and walk around the rest of his life as a cripple, he wanted to die on the field of battle. But because of a higher intervention he didn't die because he had more to do with his life(go out west, ect......).

    That is how I thought the beginning was meant to be, maybe that will help you alittle Carl.

    Life is hard, its even harder when your stupid!!
    -John Wayne

  • While I don't disagree that they should have killed him. I think you might have missed the point of that scene, especially it being the opening scene. The way I interpreted the scene was that there must have been a higher power looking out for him because he was not meant to die on that battle field as even he thought he was going to do. If you remember, he didn't want to loose his leg and walk around the rest of his life as a cripple, he wanted to die on the field of battle. But because of a higher intervention he didn't die because he had more to do with his life(go out west, ect......).
    That is how I thought the beginning was meant to be, maybe that will help you alittle Carl.


    Todd - That is very enlightening. I'm glad you came up with that premise. It fits the scene very well!

    Cheers - Jay:beer:
    "Not hardly!!!"

  • While I don't disagree that they should have killed him. I think you might have missed the point of that scene, especially it being the opening scene. The way I interpreted the scene was that there must have been a higher power looking out for him because he was not meant to die on that battle field as even he thought he was going to do. If you remember, he didn't want to loose his leg and walk around the rest of his life as a cripple, he wanted to die on the field of battle. But because of a higher intervention he didn't die because he had more to do with his life(go out west, ect......).

    That is how I thought the beginning was meant to be, maybe that will help you alittle Carl.



    Hi Todd, great points made about that scene. I had not looked at it from that point of view before. The trouble for me is, is that I still dislike that movie. I think most of my dilike for that movie is also that it to me, is anti-US Govt and im getting sick of those hollywood types doing that to this great Country. I didn't read who the movies Director was but, i'd base every cent I own, that he's a screaminig liberal.

    No offenses intended. The movie I think, would have been much better without that "I HAVE to be apologetic towards the Indians for the U.S> Govts behavior and treatments towards Indians" thing. Several times this has turned me off to several older Westerns. I don't remember titles but I do remember that one of them starred, was I think Dale Robertson? Not to be off topic too much but, in that Robertson movie, he plays a Cav Major or Capt? whose sympathies lay totally with the Indians. That movie was made in the 1950's sometime and to have such an attitude back then--could have not helped that movie much.

    Anyway, said Robertson movie above could have been better but for all the anti USA sentiment that ran rampant in that movie-ruined it for me. Now I have no problems at all for people wanting to side with the Indians for a change but--that movie as well as D.W.W. went too far IMO.

    At this point, I will most likely never watch Dances With Wolves again and it will never find it's way on DvD into my Western collection. This has zilch to do with Kevin Costner.

    Sorry for my long-winded reply ;-))

    PS, on that Robertson movie, if I had been his Commanding Officer, i'd have Court-Martialed him, and either sent him to Fort Leavenworth Prison, or maybe even have had him shot.

    P.S.S. The samething above I would have also done had I been the Costner characters C.O.

    Es Ist Verboten Mit Gefangenen In Einzelhaft Zu Sprechen..

    Edited 2 times, last by The Ringo Kid ().

  • Hate to disappoint you Carl but Kevin was the director.

    And if you remember correctly Dunbar(Costner) was being sent back to the fort(not sure which one) to be tried and possibly hung for fraternizing with the enemy(indians) when the Souix attacked and killed all the soldiers who had showed up at Fort Sedgewick(the outpost).

    While not a true story I think it depicts the plight of the Souix indians and what they endured during the expansion of the west by whites.

    I guess I am somewhat of a realist as I know that there was some bad things that were done to the indians during that period, for which the US govt. has paid for many times over and it needs to stop, so I din't mind the message that this movie portrayed. My dad didn't care for the movie because of similar views that you have Carl. I told him the same things. Let's agree to disagree. :)

    Life is hard, its even harder when your stupid!!
    -John Wayne

  • Hi Todd, you got it (the agreeing part) ;-)) I do think that the Sioux Indians deal should be known but, this film just angered me in the way they showed it. I "got-the-message" of the film without having to see everything. What our govt did to the Indians back when, was terribly wrong. I mean, why the heck was it so hard for some of those (for lack of proper terminoligy) Indian Traders to just give them their correct amounts of food and other supplies. I mean, I know that was the most corrupt of American agencies in our history but, if I have a warehouse full of good food, and they Indians need to have it-i'd have let them have their supplies.

    Es Ist Verboten Mit Gefangenen In Einzelhaft Zu Sprechen..

  • I figured that you would get the message of the movie Carl, no offense.

    I had a tough time the first time that I watched it. Too see the soldier's depicted the way they were was disheartening. I think that is what made my dad not much of a fan. He was brought up watching western's that showed the calvary soldiers as honorable men, ie Rio Grande, Fort Apache, ect..... and to see a different side to them and a ugly side to boot, it didn't sit well with him.

    Life is hard, its even harder when your stupid!!
    -John Wayne

  • That's just it, there was an ugly side to the soldiers back then. Most of them were only there because they had nothing else going for them. So they joined the army to live. They hated their way of life, hated their officers and desertions were very high back then. And one of the most hated officers was Custer. The only ones in his command that liked him were his officers under him. The enlisted men didn't like him because he was a hard taskmaster. If you deserted, he'd have you shot. But, he got into trouble for it and that ceased. Being in the army, whether it was infantry or cavalry was a very hard life and I think parts of this movie shows that. We all grew up on watching John Fords cavalry films that showed that as being a big adventure, romantic, colorful and all those soldiers having a blast. But really, it was not.

  • .... and to see a different side to them and a ugly side to boot, it didn't sit well with him.


    Todd,


    As sad as it may seem, I'm gettin' kind of old myself, and to tell the truth, I get a little tired of Hollywood's efforts at making our soldiers look bad, no matter what war they're in - with Indians, Civil War, WWI, WWII, Vietnam, etc. While I perfectly understand our military isn't much more perfect than anyone else's, and we can commit just as bad atrocities as anyone else, when I go to the movies, I really don't like having it rubbed in my face. And the sad part - you don't really know just how much they may be exaggerating things. During the Indian wars, granted the Indians got ripped off big time by today's standards, but if you'll read historical accounts, the Indians were quite active at creating situations that brought about the animosity that was directed towards them. Let's face it, it wasn't a fine time in history for anyone. I'm not sure how anyone could have made it any better. But things do go in cycles, and now, it's the Indian's turn with their casinos to take it all back. :biggrin:


    Chester :newyear: