Duke's Filmography- Past Discussion (Archive)

Hi

This topic is bringing forth quite a debate which is great and can only be good for the board.

And with all these two cents being thrown in we'll all be millionaires.

For my two cents worth:-

I have no knowledge of the film Stars Past And Present so I am unable to comment, but of the other two mentioned The Voice of Hollywood and the Hollywood Handicap I would count them both as John Wayne pictures, as does Duke the Life and Times of John Wayne.

In the book The Speed of Sound pg 270 the author offers the following:-

Quote

'A shapeless but bizarrely entertaining series of one reel shorts called he Voice of Hollywood began production on Poverty Row at this time featuring a conglomeration of second and third tier silent stars cheek by jowel with radio personalities doing what amounted to screen tests. ....... The Voice of Hollywood #13 offered as hostess the serial star Ruth Roland who does a tap dance Charles King who recites a poem; and (thank god) Jack Benney whio dissuades Estelle Taylor from singing and dancing. The essential novelty of sound was rarely made more explicit than in these cheaply made ramshackle shorts.

IMDB quotes the Voice of Hollywood #13 as being completely different with John Wayne as the Host and among others Lupe Velez and Gary Cooper starring, it is for hs reason that I include both Velez and Cooper as appearing with John Wayne. If the Speed of Sound is right then the Voice of Hollywood #13 should not be included but at some point I would think a Voice of Hollywood was made it needs only to clarifywho is right and which number is which. Certainly looking through IMDB's Voice of Hollywood series the cast mentioned in The Speed of Sound doesn't figure.

The second picture THE Hollywood Handicap (1932) was a presentation by the charity group of stars The Thalians Club who ran shows for charity, it should not be confused with Hollywood Handicap (1938) directed by Buster Keaton. described as a comedy short I still consider that the Hollywood Handicap (1932)should be included as a John Wayne film. Although I haven't seen it I believe it is another film in which John Wayne reputeldy sings and plays the guitar. Although the reviewer considers that again it is someone beghind the scenes playing and singing.

To sum up if the Deceiver and College Coach can be readilly accepted as John Wayne films, the first in which he plays a corpse, and in the secons he is seen briefly shaking hands with Dick Powell, then Voice of Hollywood and Hollywood Handicap should be included.

Regards

Arthur

Hate to rain on anybody's parade but have y'all ever heard the expression "making mountains out of mole hills"?

hi all

for the debate about desert command vs 3 musketters i think we should go with mrs c idea and add desert command as a footnote to 3musketters but also noting that it is a shorter version. this could then please everyone and keep the list more factual, how does this idea appeal

cheers smokey

Stumpy,

What!!! You should know that a true film purist like me lives for these things. (Ha Ha!)

Mrs. C,

Hey, just because IMdB lists fake films, that doesn't mean that everybody else should follow them down the wrong path. You already found and deleted two of IMdB's fakes, 10 del Texas, I (1961) and 'Neath Arizona Skies (1962). If you go to the IMdB page on these films, you will see Les has commented on both of them and made a good argument why they should be removed from Duke's filmography. By the way, the book "John Wayne: American" by Randy Roberts and James S. Olson has a filmography list in the back of the book that includes listings of the separate Production and Distribution Companies (good point there, Les Adams). So, if you could get your hands on a copy of that it might help you out.

smokey,

I'd go for the idea of listing Desert Command as a footnote to The Three Musketeers. It's probably the best way to deal with this.

Quote

Originally posted by ejgreen77@Jul 31 2005, 01:37 PM
Stumpy, What!!! You should know that a true film purist like me lives for these things. (Ha Ha!)

EJ,
I know it’s impolite to ridicule other peoples’ deeply-held beliefs but I’m a plain-spoken fellow and have always believed in saying what I mean and meaning what I say. So let me just say this; there are people on this board, and everyone knows who they are, who obviously believe that John Wayne was some sort of demigod. He wasn’t. He was a flesh-and-blood human being with all the vices and virtues of other human beings. Just because all of us like his films and the image of strength, dignity and courage he projected does not mean that we must establish a cult dedicated to the Great God Duke. He’d be the first to reject such an idea.

Perhaps we should suggest to Kevin that he post a shrine page so that those who visit the site and who worship the Man can genuflect every time they come aboard.

Now I'll sit back and wait for the incoming.

Stumpy

Thats a bit harsh people in this conversation are simply trying to find out what Dukes first movie appearance was and I'm sure a lot of people are interested.
I agree however that he should not have a 'god-like' status but I don't see that developing on this site.

I agree with regards to the conversation that 'Desert command' is not a John Wayne movie.

What about the movie which includes a montage of scenes from different movies all intergrated I think actors like Roy Rogers, Gary Cooper and John Wayne were all included in this one movie.

Quote

Originally posted by arthurarnell@Jul 31 2005, 06:39 AM
Hi

This topic is bringing forth quite a debate which is great and can only be good for the board.

And with all these two cents being thrown in we'll all be millionaires.

For my two cents worth:-

I have no knowledge of the film Stars Past And Present so I am unable to comment, but of the other two mentioned The Voice of Hollywood and the Hollywood Handicap I would count them both as John Wayne pictures, as does Duke the Life and Times of John Wayne.

In the book The Speed of Sound pg 270 the author offers the following:-
IMDB quotes the Voice of Hollywood #13 as being completely different with John Wayne as the Host and among others Lupe Velez and Gary Cooper starring, it is for hs reason that I include both Velez and Cooper as appearing with John Wayne. If the Speed of Sound is right then the Voice of Hollywood #13 should not be included but at some point I would think a Voice of Hollywood was made it needs only to clarifywho is right and which number is which. Certainly looking through IMDB's Voice of Hollywood series the cast mentioned in The Speed of Sound doesn't figure.

The second picture THE Hollywood Handicap (1932) was a presentation by the charity group of stars The Thalians Club who ran shows for charity, it should not be confused with Hollywood Handicap (1938) directed by Buster Keaton. described as a comedy short I still consider that the Hollywood Handicap (1932)should be included as a John Wayne film. Although I haven't seen it I believe it is another film in which John Wayne reputeldy sings and plays the guitar. Although the reviewer considers that again it is someone beghind the scenes playing and singing.

To sum up if the Deceiver and College Coach can be readilly accepted as John Wayne films, the first in which he plays a corpse, and in the secons he is seen briefly shaking hands with Dick Powell, then Voice of Hollywood and Hollywood Handicap should be included.
Regards

Arthur

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Arthur,
as usual and par for your course, you are about 100% right on regarding 1932's THE HOLLYWOOD HANDICAP. It was produced by The Thalins Club as a fund-raiser for their charities, not unlike the later-day (post 1935 ) Will Rogers annual appeals to the theatre audiences for funds for the Memorial Hospital in Rochester, N.Y. Like the Will Rogers annual appeals, the various studios took turns paying for the production and distribution costs, and 1932 was Universal's year. Outside of club-members James Burke, Vernon Dent, Monte Collins and Jack Duffy, the cast was made up of footage featuring players that had appeared in Radio Pictures (not quite yet fully RKO Radio) features from that year, plus Wayne, Tully Marshall and Billy Curtis (Little Billy) were there in footage from Mascot's THE SHADOW OF THE EAGLE. Just exactly how footage was used from the Radio Pictures features and the Mascot serial, I don't know.

And, as usual and par for their course, the IMDb is all wet regarding the date of THE VOICE OF HOLLYWOOD # 13. Tiffany made 26 of these (13 a year for the 1929-30 and 1930-31 production seasons) and the IMDb has # 26 as being made ahead of #13. The Tiffany people, unlike the IMDb people could count, and they produced # 13 as the last production made in the 1929-30 season, and # 26 was the last in the 1930-31 season. (That 1932 date the IMDb uses might possibly be an overseas first showing, as opposed to a US release date, possibly in the U.K., although U.K. release dates of American films didn't ordinarily fall that far behind the original U.S. date. More likely, just another typical IMDb error.)

Tiffany had a pretty good thing going with their "Voice of Hollywood series." The major studios, eager to promote their own productions at no cost to them, would lend their contract players to Tiffany---"hike yourself free-gratis over to Tiffany for a short they are making"---and, in turn, Tiffany got the talents and services of the players used in these shorts...also free gratis...and the proceeds from the theatre rentals. Gary Cooper and Lupe Velez are there because they were in Paramount's "Wolf Song" at the time, as was George Bancroft in Paramount's "Ladies Love Brutes"; Hal Roach sent over Jackie Cooper, Thelma Todd and "Farina" Hoskins (all regulars in Shorts he was producing at the time) and Fox supplied John Wayne and El Brendel from "The Big Trail." All the players did something new before the Tiffany cameras---no stock footage from their films---but mention of the films they were currently appearing in took place. Not unlike some movie star making a guest appearance on the Bob Hope or Bing Crosby radio (television without pictures) shows of the 1940's.

Oops, dang me...there goes another rubber-plant molehill.

Les

Hi ,
I have not included any TV productions whatsoever,
no WAGON TRAIN, THE LUCY SHOW,
only films made for the big screen,
otherwise we will be including
Glen Campbell, Dean Martin shows,
Rowan and Martin,etc etc.
That why I although I have copies of
ROOKIE OF THE YEAR, and WAGON TRAIN placed
in chronological order in my library,
I have not included them in my list.

Hi Mr and Mrs Chester,

The filmography is shaping up great,
I hope you got my reply comments
about HAM HAMILTONS comedies,
and also one that, Arthur and I have mentioned
THE SWEETHEART OF SIGMA CHI,
If films like BARDELYS and ANNIE LAURIE can be included
without so far, any documented confirmation,
then the above, from what I posted before,
should warrant, these being included!

Hi Arthur and Les,
It was so interesting to hear your comments about
THE VOICE OF HOLLYWOOD and THE HOLLYWOOD HANDICAP.
perhaps you may be interested in the following, further information:-

THE VOICE OF HOLLYWOOD.
John Wayne, played the the radio announcer of the station 'S-T-A-R'
and introduced various movie stars within the series background.
There is a bit of by-play, concerning some stolen jewels, that adds interest to the continuity.
Credits:
SECOND SERIES, #13.
Production Company: Tiffany
Director: Mack D'Agostino
Duration:- 12 Minutes
Released:- January 17, 1932

John Wayne, George Bancroft, El Brendel,
Jackie Cooper, GARY Cooper,
Lupe Velez,Farina,Eddie Quillan,
Thelma Todd, Jack Dempsey, Estelle Taylor.

Those movie stars, who could sing, dance, tell jokes would do so!
Hosts included,
LLOYD 'HAM' HAMILTON

The friendly announcer, in this particular one John Wayne,
would encourage viewers to suggest which movie stars, they would like to see in future episodes!
In Hollywood eyes, this series was inept.
Featuring has beens, at the time, not in our eyes, though,
it was awkwardly staged,underehearsed(if at all),
and everyone concerned, were totally
disinterested, in what was going on!!

THE HOLLYWOOD HANDICAP.

John Wayne, was a guest in this two-reeler, which was part of a comedy series.
Other guest included, Anita Stewart, Bert Wheeler, Dickie Moore,
and Tully Marshall.
As mentioned earlier,
the production company was indeed
The Thalians Club and Brian Foy.
Distributed by: Universal,Directed by: Charles Lamont.
Released:- August 10, 1932

The Thalian comedies, were sponsored by the Hollywood-based acting club, the group Duke had joined, while he was at Fox.

Quote

Originally posted by ethanedwards@Aug 1 2005, 07:35 PM
Hi Arthur and Les,
It was so interesting to hear your comments about
THE VOICE OF HOLLYWOOD and THE HOLLYWOOD HANDICAP.
perhaps you may be interested in the following, further information:-
 
THE VOICE OF HOLLYWOOD.
John Wayne, played the the radio announcer of the station 'S-T-A-R'
and introduced various movie stars within the series background.
There is a bit of by-play, concerning some stolen jewels, that adds interest to the continuity.
Credits:
SECOND SERIES, #13.
Production Company: Tiffany
Director: Mack D'Agostino
Duration:- 12 Minutes
Released:- January 17, 1932
 
John Wayne, George Bancroft, El Brendel,
Jackie Cooper, GARY Cooper,
Lupe Velez,Farina,Eddie Quillan,
Thelma Todd, Jack Dempsey, Estelle Taylor.
 
Those movie stars, who could sing, dance, tell jokes would do so!
Hosts included,
LLOYD 'HAM' HAMILTON
 
The friendly announcer, in this particular one John Wayne,
would encourage viewers to suggest which movie stars, they would like to see in future episodes!
In Hollywood eyes, this series was inept.
Featuring has beens, at the time, not in our eyes, though,
it was awkwardly staged,underehearsed(if at all),
and everyone concerned, were totally
disinterested, in what was going on!!
 
THE HOLLYWOOD HANDICAP.
 
John Wayne, was a guest in this two-reeler, which was part of a comedy series.
Other guest included, Anita Stewart, Bert Wheeler, Dickie Moore,
and Tully Marshall.
As mentioned earlier,
the production company was indeed
The Thalians Club and Brian Foy.
Distributed by: Universal,Directed by: Charles Lamont.
Released:- August 10, 1932
 
The Thalian comedies, were sponsored by the Hollywood-based acting club, the group Duke had joined, while he was at Fox.

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Ethan,
Thanks for the appreciated imput, but I think, based on the records from Tiffany I'm looking at and not from other sources, the dates and series number on "The Voice of Hollywood #13" are a tad bit off. It wasn't made or released in 1932 (none of them were) and isn't part of the Second series. As I'm sure you know, Hollywood's definition of a "production season" was the films a studio produced from September of one year through August of the following year. The first series of "The Voice of Hollywood" was made in the production season of 1929-30, and they produced and released a new one every four weeks during that season, and then produced and released 13 more of these during the 1930-31 production season. Tiffany has #13 as the last one made during the 1929-30 season, so the correct designation for this one with Wayne (as the radio announcer) was #13, First Season. It was made in late July 1930 and was released in August of that year. The first entry of the Second series was #14 and was made in September of 1930....and #26 in August of 1931 was the last one made.

That 1932 date for #13 has been floating around for many years because that is the date one of the trade journal reviewers caught it playing in one of the grind-house theatres in New York and that date comes from that review. All of these "Voice of Hollywood" shorts were available and stocked in various states rights exchanges around the country for many years, consequently any one of them (once released) could be rented and shown anywhere around the US in any order for several years.

And this may fall under the heading of coals to Newcastle, as I'm sure you already know this, but the Charles King, mentioned in another thread above in "The Hollywood Handicap" is the Charles King who was in MGM's 1929 "The Broadway Melody", and not the long-time sound-era movie villain Charles "Blackie" King. The "Newcastle" mention is because after close to 45 years of semi-hacking around as a film historian, I quickly learned that many of the most-knowledgeable people regarding American-made films, that I was in communication with, resided in the UK or in Denmark and Sweden.

WOAH, THERE STUMPY!!!

I'm afraid my (admittedly) weird sense of humor may have thrown you off a little. Just for the record, my comment was intended as a bit of lighthearted sarcasm, and I'm sorry if it was misunderstood. I was just saying that you are ultimately right, and that it's something that (in the grand scheme of life) is probably pretty silly. But, I do enjoy films and film history, it is a particular hobby, pleasure, and pastime of mine. So, I carry on conversations like this one simply because I enjoy it.

And as far as making Duke out to be some sort of a god, as you say, he’d be the first to reject such an idea. And I would be second. One of the things that I like about Duke was that he was most definitely NOT a god. Both on and off screen, he made mistakes and wasn't afraid to admit to making them.

Now, as for Desert Command, I said that this film should be removed from Duke's filmography, and have made several (in my mind) good, solid arguments as to why. What I have not received from anyone is just why this film should have been included in the first place. Sure, IMdB lists it, but as I said in my previous post, IMdB lists several fake films. It is a good and worthwhile source, but should not be accepted without question as the ultimate authority on these matters.

As for television, I have tried to compile a list of the Duke's TV show appearances. This is far from my area of expertise, so this list is probably incomplete and/or inaccurate, but here it is:

1. "This Is Your Life" in episode: "William Wellman" 8 December 1954
2. "Gunsmoke" (CBS) in episode: "Matt Gets It" (episode # 1.1) 10 September 1955
3. "I Love Lucy" (CBS) in episode: "Lucy and John Wayne" (episode # 5.2) 10 October 1955
4. "Screen Directors Playhouse" in episode: "Rookie of the Year" (episode # 1.10) 7 December 1955
5. "Climax!" in episode: "The Louella Parsons Story" (episode # 2.23) 8 March 1956
6. "Toast of the Town" (CBS) (archive footage) (episode # 11.14) 29 December 1957
7. "Wide Wide World" in episode: "The Western" 1958
8. "Toast of the Town" (CBS) (archive footage) (episode # 12.40) 21 June 1959
9. "What's My Line?" (CBS) 13 November 1960
10. "Toast of the Town" (CBS) (episode # 14.6) 13 November 1960
11. "The Jack Benny Program" (CBS) in episode: "John Wayne Show" (episode # 11.5) 20 November 1960
12. "Wagon Train" (NBC) (as Michael Morris) in episode: "The Colter Craven Story" (episode # 4.9) 23 November 1960
13. "Cinépanorama" 17 December 1960
14. "Alcoa Premiere" in episode: "Flashing Spikes" (episode # 2.1) 4 October 1962
15. "The Dick Powell Show" in episode: "The Third Side of the Coin" (episode # 2.26) 26 March 1963
16. "Cinépanorama" 26 December 1964
17. "The Dean Martin Show" (NBC) 23 September 1965
18. "The Dean Martin Show" (NBC) 27 October 1966
19. "The Lucy Show" (CBS) in episode: "Lucy and John Wayne" (episode # 5.10) 21 November 1966
20. "The Beverly Hillbillies" (CBS) in episode: "The Indians Are Coming" (episode # 5.20) 1 February 1967
21. "Dateline: Hollywood" 15 May 1967
22. "Dateline: Hollywood" 16 May 1967
23. "Dateline: Hollywood" 17 May 1967
24. "Dateline: Hollywood" 18 May 1967
25. "Dateline: Hollywood" 19 May 1967
26. "The Red Skelton Show" (CBS) in episode: "John Wayne's 40th Anniversary" 1968
27. "Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In" (NBC) (episode # 1.7) 4 March 1968
28. "Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In" (NBC) (episode # 1.8) 11 March 1968
29. "Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In" (NBC) (episode # 1.9) 25 March 1968
30. "Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In" (NBC) (episode # 1.11) 8 April 1968
31. "Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In" (NBC) (episode # 1.12) 15 April 1968
32. "Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In" (NBC) (episode # 1.13) 22 April 1968
33. "Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In" (NBC) (episode # 1.14) 29 April 1968
34. "Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In" (NBC) (episode # 2.1) 16 September 1968
35. "Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In" (NBC) (episode # 2.2) 23 September 1968
36. "The Glen Campbell Goodtime Hour" (episode # 1.4) 19 February 1969
37. "The Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson" (NBC) 7 February 1971
38. "V.I.P.-Schaukel" (episode # 1.2) 12 September 1971
39. "The Glen Campbell Goodtime Hour" (episode # 4.1) 14 September 1971
40. "Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In" (NBC) (episode # 5.8) 1 November 1971
41. "The Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson" (NBC) 14 January 1972
42. "Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In" (NBC) (episode # 5.18) 31 January 1972
43. "Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In" (NBC) (episode # 5.23) 13 March 1972
44. "The Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson" (NBC) 7 June 1972
45. "Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In" (NBC) (episode # 6.1) 11 September 1972
46. "Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In" (NBC) (episode # 6.20) 12 February 1973
47. "The Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson" (NBC) 22 March 1973
48. "Maude" (CBS) in episode: "Maude Meets the Duke" (episode # 3.1) 9 September 1974
49. "The Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson" (NBC) 15 October 1975
50. "The Mike Douglas Show" (SYN) 21 September 1976
51. "Biography" (A&E) in episode: "John Wayne: The Unquiet American"
52. "Biography" (A&E) in episode: "John Wayne"

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Originally posted by ejgreen77@Aug 3 2005, 09:18 PM
WOAH, THERE STUMPY!!!

I'm afraid my (admittedly) weird sense of humor may have thrown you off a little. Just for the record, my comment was intended as a bit of lighthearted sarcasm, and I'm sorry if it was misunderstood. I was just saying that you are ultimately right, and that it's something that (in the grand scheme of life) is probably pretty silly. But, I do enjoy films and film history, it is a particular hobby, pleasure, and pastime of mine. So, I carry on conversations like this one simply because I enjoy it.

And as far as making Duke out to be some sort of a god, as you say, he’d be the first to reject such an idea. And I would be second. One of the things that I like about Duke was that he was most definitely NOT a god. Both on and off screen, he made mistakes and wasn't afraid to admit to making them.

I wasn't criticizing you, EJ. In fact, your posts have in no way suggested the ridiculously worshipful adulation for Duke that some do. So please forgive me if I sounded critical toward you.

It's just that I think all this worrying about Duke's film appearances during his early career or which TV appearances he may or may not have made is much ado about nothing and in a sense, a reinvention of the wheel. What I mean is - there's no shortage of Wayne filmographies already published.

Hi Mr and Mrs C
I have to agree with your YIKES!!
about a TVography!!
which is well documented in the John Wayne Reference Book.
I find the listings very interesting, but not as relevant as
the film listings.
We has avid fans,can always hope, that 'lost' films will turn up,and we can add to our prized collections.
In the case of TV shows, this is not the case!!
TV shows were rarely recorded, and so will unfortunately never be seen.
It is for that reason, I think a TVography, i
has limited appeal.

Hi all,
What is the whole number of JW movies. In books there is oftein said that he did more than 200 movies, but in all filmographies there is much less. What is the reason of that?

Hi Vera,
I think you will find, when Filmograpies show a figure of 200+
they are probably, incuding some TV and Documentaries!
What Chester, and fellow members are doing here,
is to only list Films which were released through
cinemas, as including TV stuff just clouds the whole issue!
When we have finished,after discussion and agreement, you will find
our list, which will more than likely run under the 200 figure,
be the most definitive, and concise, filmography
ever done, about John Wayne.
I for one will, use it as my master list.

Best Wishes,
Keith

Quote

Originally posted by ethanedwards@Aug 20 2005, 04:22 PM
Hi Vera,
I think you will find, when Filmograpies show a figure of 200+
they are probably, incuding some TV and Documentaries!
What Chester, and fellow members are doing here,
is to only list Films which were released through
cinemas, as including TV stuff just clouds the whole issue!
When we have finished,after discussion and agreement, you will find
our list, which will more than likely run under the 200 figure,
be the most definitive, and concise, filmography
ever done, about John Wayne.
I for one will, use it as my master list.

Best Wishes,
Keith

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Hi Keith,
I printed your filmography and some filmographies from the internet sites. For me now it is not the urgent question, becouse I have not many Wayne films now and had to see the magjor ones in the nearest futere. But observe the whole is very interesting and it is always an optimistic thought that I haven't seen so many JW films and have a hope to see them in future.
All the best,
Vera

HI All,
May be anybody knows JW film "Hell Town". I didn't find it in the filmography.
Regards,
Vera